Colt action question

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jhon

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Hi, I've been working on my Uberti 1851 Navy, eliminating the tiny bit of cylinder wobble it had and replacing the hand (original hand spring broke after about 100 rounds).

It's taken me a couple tries to get a new hand sized to where it works right. My first try I filed off too much. I'm not sure that I've got it quite right yet either. I don't have any other revolvers to compare it to, so I thought I'd ask here for help.

If I cock my revolver slowly, it has four clicks. First, it goes to half-cock, then it clicks when the cylinder stop bolt pops up, then it clicks full cock, then it goes a bit further before clicking when the cylinder turns all the way engaging the bolt and locking the cylinder in place.

I imagine if tuned properly there would only be three clicks and that the cylinder would lock exactly at full cock, instead of needing a bit more. This probably means that my hand is filed just a bit too short. But I didn't pay this close of attention before I replaced it, and don't have anything else to compare against. So if anybody is willing to check on their revolvers, how many clicks are there when you cock it, and does the cylinder lock right at full cock or a little after? Thank you!
 
C-O-L-T four clicks. First is bolt dropping, second is the half cock, third is the bolt locking , fourth is the full cock.




I think.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
 
Actually the bolt doesn't click when it drops, just when it's released; and a cap & ball Colt has 3 clicks, not four. In a Single Action Army revolver the fourth click is the safety notch, which a C&B doesn't have.

In a correctly timed Colt (percussion or cartridge) the bolt will be released and pop up in the lede before the notch. The hand will continue to rotate the cylinder until the bolt engages and drops into the cylinder notch. At this point the trigger should drop into the full-cock notch because the cylinder can revolve no further, and the back of the hammer should hit the backstrap, which acts as a stop. Otherwise you can batter the point of the hand, the matching ratchet tooth, and the cylinder's notches.

In my experience very few replicas come out of the box that are timed as described above. In particular, the back of the hammer doesn't hit the backstrap as the trigger falls into the full-cock notch, an important but often overlooked point.
 
I would say first gunsmith. to fix the timing. Then i would say go out and buy a full set of parts from VTI gunworks. After that take apart the gun and hone down the new parts until they look exactly like the other ones. Replace each of the parts one at a time and check the action. keeping the good parts to the left. When you get all the new parts working correctly pull them out put back the originals. then put the new parts in a baggie and keep them put away. when ever you need them you will have them already fitted.
 
and a cap & ball Colt has 3 clicks

Damn! My walker must be broke! It only has two clicks, the first at half cock and the second when the hammer reaches the end of travel and the bolt pops up into the notch at exactly the same time that the trigger engages full cock. And what's worse is that it came that way right out of the box!

Damn Uberti..........:evil:
 
But at full-cock is the hammer back against the backstrap?

To really tell you have to remove the cylinder bolt, then cock the hammer and see if you can move it further back after the trigger engages the full-cock notch. If so you are battering the bolt's ball against the side of the notch, and the point of the hand against the ratchet tooth.

During the 19th century at Colt, the hammer and trigger were fitted first to insure the backstrap acted as a stop. All of the other parts were added and timed after that.

For the most part the Italian copies are adjusted so that the trigger falls into the full-cock notch as the bolt locks the cylinder - but the hammer is not against the backstrap, and sometimes well short of it.
 
Thanks for the replies. My hammer doesn't come close to contacting the backstrap either. I got my replacement parts from Dixie Gun Works, and while they seem to be higher quality/stronger than the original parts, I've had some trouble fitting them. Thanks for the heads up on VTI scrat, I'll stock up on some parts from there for the future.

I guess I'll try to find a gunsmith, one who can also hopefully ream out my cylinder chambers if they need it. I might also get this book and see if it helps me out any:

http://www.amazon.com/Gunsmithin-Guns-Old-West-Gunsmithing/dp/0873497694/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=IO5W0U4MLTGD6&colid=2IKX1TJNQMTM6
 
But at full-cock is the hammer back against the backstrap?

No, it has room to go. You don't have to remove the bolt to check, just remove the cylinder. But, I felt like I was pressing my luck as it was the 4th gun that I made the Cabela's clerk open for my inspection. He was noticeably aggravated as I put it through the paces. Makes me wonder how people can advertise guns as "unfired & unturned", If I even considered buying that gun before they did, it has definitely been turned.
 
i dont see how you can really have a unturned gun. i mean even at the factory when its being built someone has to turn the cylinder to check the quality of the part.
 
i dont see how you can really have a unturned gun. i mean even at the factory when its being built someone has to turn the cylinder to check the quality of the part.

That's what I always thought, but after reading some of the new gun horror stories here and on other forums, I have to wonder if they're even spot checked.
 
sad but true. i guess thats like building cars. not adding gas, oil antifreeze, transmission fluid then shipping them out to dealers. to find out they have never been turned on
 
If the cylinder is serial numbered to the gun they may do what Colt did - assemble the gun "in the white" and then finish it.
 
Colts and Rems both are four click when pullin' the hammer back. The time between the 3rd and 4th click(shorter or longer) is the amount of tuning that was done(shorter) or Newer Rev (longer)...3 click (which is actually 4) s he optimal lock up. Or Worn down from use, called broke in...

SG
 
When a Colt cap&baller is tuned right on the money there's three clicks. When it gets a little worn it can go to four clicks. If it gets out of time bad it can go two clicks. That doesn't mean it won't work if there's four or two clicks. Optimum is three for a cap&baller. A single action non-cap&baller with a safety notch has four clicks.
Anywhooo....when a Colt gets out of time some it still keeps on shooting well enough. I find it interesting that Old Fuff has info on the 'Old days" at the Colt factory where as the guns were timed with the hammer resting back on the backstrape like a "stop". I'd like to read that book or article.
I would think since the bolt comes up and rears it's little hard head to act as a stop for the cylinder that comes flying around with some speed and force,especially when there's the weight of the cartridges in the chambers, and the one side of the cylinder notch edge collides with the bolt that is stationary there's a good bit of force transmitted to the poor little bolt. It's a spring steel part and is hard and that's one reason it last as long as it does. The edge of the cylinder notch last a good long while too. They take a licking and keep on ticking. The parts are designed that way.
The hand takes a beating too. Even when the cap&baller is cocked fairly normal and not fanned,or whatever, the cylinder travels pretty fast and the weight hits the bolt but also the hand hits the ratchet behind the cylinder hard too. Even with normal cocking.
The hand rest below the ratchet tooth and travels a ways before it contacts the ratchet. That's so the bolt that works off the hammer cam can get the bolt out of the cylinders notch before the hand turns the cylinder. If the bolt isn't out of the notch complwetely the metal at the top of the cylinder notch on that one side gets deformed. Anyway, even with normal,non-Cowboy, shooting and cocking the parts take a beating. It's the geometry of the parts and the mechanical design that has the parts working hard and beating each other to death.
If the hammer were to reach the backstrap and stop against it with the backstrap acting as a mechanical stop with the parts timed so that everything is done and the gun is at exact "locked into battery" and ready to fire that would seemingly be the optimum scenario but......
If that were the proper way to tune and time a cap&baller then whenever the parts,that work so hard and beat on each other, sustained a small amount of wear then the gun would not be able to be locked into battery. Wear to the ratchet behind the cylinder or to the hand that pushes the cylinder around by making contact with the ratchet tooth would make it impossible to get the gun into battery if the hammer was set to hit the backstrap and stop at the instant the timed gun hit the trigger into the full cock notch and the bolt snicked into the cylinders notch. Just a bit of wear to a gun timed like that would render it unable to be drawn to full cock and locked into battery to fire. It just wouldn't be able to be fired. If it could be fired like that due to some wear to the tip of the trigger ,and the trigger hit full cock on the hammer ,then the gun would fire with the chambers quite ill aligned with the grooves of the barrel and be danged inaccurate and spit lead probably.
I'd say in my humble opinion that Colt wouldn't design a revolver that got disfunctionable with just a small amount of wear to the parts so I'd surmiss the hammers weren't set to hit the backstrap at the instant the gun locked into battery to fire.
I'd say,as I tried to explain, that really wouldn't stop the brunt of the force transmitted to one part of the gun to the others anyway since so much of it happens just before and just as the gun hits full cock. Naturally if someone was of the gorrilla evolution and wanted to yank and pull on the hammer after the gun hit full cock and was locked into battery then there would be an unusual amount of wear sustained by that gun. The hand and the ratchet and the bolt and the cylinders notch would be unduly stessed. I reckon to have the opinion that even under stress most people feel the gun has reached the end of it's cycle of the action and stop pulling on the hammer. They may pull the hammer very fast and put some force or stess on the parts of the gun if there's an enemy close at hand that is about to blow their head off but.......I reckon they'd be feeling for that hammer to stop and notify them the gun should be locked into battery and be putting the tension on the trigger at that point instead of the hammer.:eek:
Anywhooooo.....I'm of the opinion that the hammers weren't set to hit the backstrap,that was working double duty and acting as a stop for the hammer, at the instant the gun hit full cock. The reason being ,I figure, the gun would be rendered inoperable due to a small amount of wear in that case of the backstrap being a stop for the hammer as the gun hit full cock. I just can't see Mr. Sam L Colt designing the guns that way.
Well....maybe I'm wrong. I have been wrong before. Once back in 1969 when I enlisted in the Army?:banghead::cuss::fire::mad::eek: ha ha ha ha ha ha Jest kidding around! I was wrong one other time when I married a beautiful sensuous dancer that was seductive enough to give a guy a _______ from across the room. She couldn't cook worth a hoot and I was skinny as a rail then.:(
 
Rifle, Wayne, Wayner

If it gets out of time bad it can go two clicks.

In the case of the Walker and the first model Dragoon I would respectfully disagree. As you are aware, these two models do not have cyl. notch ramps and therefore the second of the three clicks is the sound of the leading edge of the cyl. notch being peened. Given the cost of a replacement cyl. for those models, I would think that the frequent replacement of the hand is an economical alternative.

BTW, I am very interested to find out how your walker has held up after you reamed your cyl. bores to .467. Did you have to modify the forcing cone? Have you shot it much since, and have you experienced any ill effects to the base pin or the barrel at the wedge? I am on the fence about doing mine and would appreciate any input from you.

Also, did you order a special mold to cast your own .472 balls or do you have a source to get them done already? What are your thoughts on swagging down a .490 to a few thou. over cly. bore and then trying to seat them?
 
What is the fourth click?

O.K. what is the fourth click if there is only supposed to be three? Let's see:

#1. The trigger reaches the half cock position.
#2. The bolt head is released and hits the anticipation notch on the cyclinder.
#3. The trigger reaches the full cock position, and the bolt head slides off into the cylinder notch at the same time and locks the cylinder.

So, if you have four clicks you have the hammer reaching full cock just a tad before the bolt head slides off into the notch locking up the cylinder. Now, if all that is correct, if you have a gun with 4 clicks the hand is a hair short. That can be corrected by laying the hand on its flat side and tapping it with a hammer to make it a hair longer, or refitting a new hand.

Am I correct in all this?:confused:
 
Old Fuff is right; the hammer should stop when it hits the backstrap, and that should happen when the bolt drops and the trigger clicks into the full cock notch. That way there is no unnecessary strain on the hand or cylinder bolt.

The factory, though, didn't achieve that by working on the hand, but by filing on the backstrap. Some writers, unaware of that, have made a big deal out of the differences in the backstrap, trying to put them in categories or assign a certain cut to a serial number range.

Jim
 
You guys sure know your stuff! Thanks for all the info.

Yup, you're right K.A.T. I'm going to try hammering it out a bit before replacing it.

I hammered the bolt a bit to widen it and fix the cylinder wobble and that worked. Took about 2 minutes as opposed to the 3 hours spent trying to fit a replacement bolt that I never did get to work right.

I've always needed something in my hands to mess with--butterfly knife, drum stick to twirl, etc. Now that I've got the revolver to mess with I'm afraid I'm wearing it out rather quickly.
 
Old Fuff is right; the hammer should stop when it hits the backstrap, and that should happen when the bolt drops and the trigger clicks into the full cock notch. That way there is no unnecessary strain on the hand or cylinder bolt.

The factory, though, didn't achieve that by working on the hand, but by filing on the backstrap. Some writers, unaware of that, have made a big deal out of the differences in the backstrap, trying to put them in categories or assign a certain cut to a serial number range.

Jim

I imagine that none of the modern replicas achieve this? And replacement straps probably don't have the extra material to be filed anyway. Being gentle may be the only option here.
 
Clicks

Now, if all that is correct, if you have a gun with 4 clicks the hand is a hair short.

No hand is not short, bolt hits the ramp on a Colt or the cylinder on a Rem as hammer comes back, bolt clicks into slot as hammer is pulled all the way back.
4th click...no matter how close together the clicks are. 3 clicks are optimal but Rev has been stoned or it's a worn hand workin perfectly. Like I said before broke in.

SG
 
If Old Fuff is correct in the assumption the backstrap is made to be a stop for the hammer so the hammer can't be pulled back any further than exact full cock when the revolvers parts are new then........ how long would one suppose the gun would take to sustain a minimum amount of wear and become inoperable due to the cylinder not being able to be pushed to "locked in battery" by the hand that's not able to push a little further due to the hammer stopped by the backstrap ? If Old Fuff is correct than I'd be interested in seeing the proof documented in a reliable documented form ,not an opinion of someone, as proof the Colt factory wanted it done that way. I'd find that interesting. After I read that I'd not want my revolver set up that way anywhoo....:)
"The second of the three clicks is the sound of the leading edge being peened"? I'm not sure what you mean Whosyrdaddy. The bolt snicks into the cylinder whether there's a ramp or not a ramp so I'm not understanding what yer saying. I know when there's wear the bolt sometimes never leaves the surface of the cylinder. That can make it sound as if there's only two clicks.
I haven't had any problems with my Walker with it's .467 chambers (barrels grooves are .464) I use 45gr. FFFg powder. The mould I use is made by Lee. I had to pay to buy the tungsten ball they use to finish swag the moulds hole to size but they keep the tungsten ball. If I want another mould or three I pay the $100 set up fee and $25 for each mould. I like the Lee moulds. I like the Dixie scissors mould without the sprue cut-off plate too because it's cheap and I use a pair of wire cutters to cut the sprue off. It still leaves a sprue thingy but I ignore it. It doesn't seem to matter a whole lot. I do dress the balls with a file chalked to not get lead stuck in it at times but that's too time consuming. Anywhooo....my Waller is pretty accurate when the barrel's kept clean. If a person wasn't going to keep the barrel clean(by using a good lube/wax made into lube pills or saturated into wool wads and put under the balls in the chambers) I'd say "don't ream the chambers". Anyway, the size of the chambers is decided upon by slugging the barrel to know the groove diameter. Then it's decided whether a person wants the ball the same size as the barrels grooves or .001-.002-.003 in. over the groove diameter. I did open and elongate the forcing cone some years ago but an average forcing cone works. I'd have to add that I don't use powder like the 777 in my Walker. Why push it? ha ha ha
Smoking-Gun I understand what you are saying about four clicks when a gun is broken in. Are you saying that a gun can get a little wear on it and have four clicks(trigger hits half cock,bolt snicks back to the cylinders surface, trigger hits full cock, bolt snicks into the cylinderr notch) and still be operating just fine? I believe it. I have guns like that. Every gun doesn't need to have a perfect timing....unless the hammer hits the backstrap and stops so if the gun gets worn some it can't be shot without the cylinder being out of alignment. Anyway, I'm not a historian so I guess there's got to be more interesting things I can dig up about "cap&ballers". It would be real interesting to find documents detailing the assembly techniques they used back in the old days of the Colt factory. I'll have to ask Dave at the voy if he has run across any assembly techniques in his studies.
I was wondering about how often people say the hand is too short(when there's four clicks to a cap&baller Colt) and whether or not they ever think the trigger might actually be too short? Another one I wonder about is whether or not people realize a Remington has less clicks to it's action when it's operating properly? A Remingtons bolt doesn't hit back into the cylinder once it's pulled out due to the geometry of the parts and the fact that has the bolt come back in contact with the cylinder gently and hreld in the grasp of the cam so it doesn't get away from the cam and click. It leaves the cam after it's in contact with the cylinder. That makes one less click to a Rem than a Colt when the Rem is working right.
Anywhooo.....yous are a bunch of interesting folks to hash things about. Smoking Gun...I don't hate you for being beautiful or opinionated. :p ha ha ha ha Dang ole Buckskinner!
 
Well Rifle I'm glad you don't hate me period you old Cowboy livin' in the hills, shootin up sum food, fishin' in your lake...your gonna be shootin' rocks with them big ol' hoglegs someday and up thru the ground will come a bubblin' crude.
You got exactly what i ment even if It din't come out right clear. About the 3 & four click stuff. After playin with these actions for a spell I gotta say that both you and I know the Rem actions work better, can be smoother, easier to fix if they break, and last longer than them purdy Colts.
Not sayin' I like Rems Better now. Colt have a shorter hammer throw, lighter mainspring, and can be tuned to perfection by a Gunsmith like Rifle here. Colt have a natural pointability Rems have a improved aiming sights and a full frame or top strap. Anyway what I'm tryin' ta say is that I like um both differant and I like Rems just sum better.(now I'm sayin' it)
Come on Rifle lets go shootin'...:D

SG
 
Rifle's interpretation of the colt's opertation sounds reasonable to me, :cool: however, 'yesterday', while watching an AGI gunsmithing series on the Colt Single Action [Army Revolver]; Master Gunsmith, Robert Dunlap , an ex-employee of Colt, made the same statement about the Backstrap being the stop, confirming what "Old Fluff and Jim Keenan" said, :) further adding that most guns nowdays are slightly out of time, and don't do that. ;)
Just thought I'd toss that into the mix........ :)

Sage ~ ~ {edited}
 
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