Colt action question

[pohill]

I can only base my observations on my repros, patents, questions I ask, and answers from knowledgeable people like Rifle/Wayne. I do own two original BP revolvers, the Savage & North and the Whitney. The Savage & North is a different species altogether. The Whitney is pretty straightforward - not much difference from that and say a Spiller & Burr repro or a Remington repro. I have handled and partially stripped down a few originals - an 1851 .36, an 1849 .31 and an 1860 .44. I really didn't see much variation between them and repros.

Along with a "computer with a word processor, a printer, and a ream of paper", don't forget alot of determination, perseverance, and a current copy of LMP .
I said write "another" book...

 

[Smokin_Gun]

I'll tell Ya what I'm a gonna do. Tomorrow or sometime Monday, I'm goin' over to the Gun Galleria in town here and if the right guy is there I'm gonna Cock an original 1860, an 1851, and a 2nd model Dragoon. Then I'm gonna cock five 2nd Generation 1862 Colt Pockets if they have been turned, an 1851 Navy, and I think an 1860 Army. And will report my findings ... will this help?
Then I'm going to Lancaster to what used to be known as "Jack First Gunshop" now the The Gunshop. A very large parts distributor of original Colt, Rem, Winchester, Marlin, S&W, ect and what have you, and see what he has for triggers and hands maybe a bolt...for an 1860 Army original replacement or 2nd Generation or is that merely a Repro and those parts wouldn't count.
Hell I want a new trigger anyway, and may as well get a hand/spring.
Try it and see if they match or will fit and where the hammer ends up.
Kool I like field trips

SG

 

[Old Fuff]

How much the original Colt’s tell you depends on the condition they are in and how much mileage they’ve seen. Do eyeball the hammer slot in the backstraps for any sign of alteration.

The second generation Colt/Colt’s were made using castings and other parts obtained from Uberti. These don’t mean anything relating to the original guns.

Jack First had an awful lot of everything, and I’m sure his successor does too. But finding unused cap & ball parts is a long stretch. Repro parts are part of the problem rather then the solution. Don’t junk any short triggers because they can be welded up.

I hate field trips…. They can get to be so expensive…

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Dang now you tell me, I sold ny Arc welder about 18-20 years ago. Now I gotta get one a these to fix my triggers?


So you din't Time 2nd Gen. Repros from Colt so as the hammer hit the frame?
Only the Original 1st Gen. models that you guys shot, and Cartridge Guns.
So it doesn't mean anything that all the Reproduction models 2nd and 3rd Generation Colts, or any other revolvers don't use the backstrap as a stop?
And they work just fine the way they are made, for the most part.

And what about the Remingtons? Differant animal I guess, but they don't use the backstrap as a stop either.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, exactly what is meant by a stop.
Backstrap as a Stop would mean once cocked Zero Play in hammer. If that's the case how do you pull the hammer back and squeeze the trigger to lower the hammer? Wouldn't that place undue wear on the hammer/trigger at the sear?

Just tryin' to understand what makes that way so great. Sounds to me like once you set the parts up and they wear some you'd be right back where the Repros started out at.

I understand you and what you are explaining you did, but can't quite see that it's better then the new ones now.
I'll try it on my 1860 and see what comes of it. But you would have to weld up a trigger longer to do this, correct? I never saw a Longer trigger to order.
I guess this is mainly for a 1st gen. Colt from the 1850's.

SG

 

[Old Fuff]

Smokin_Gun:

You is straining ya' luck. I ain't had any coffee yet this morning...

You are trying to move faster then I can go. Now that you're interested you want all the answers right now! Sooner the better. You have worn the poor Old Fuff to a frazzle.

No, I have "adjusted" replicas so the backstrap acts as a hammer stop, but I have also done it other ways. The purpose, both in the original guns and the ones made today was to eliminate unnecessary and damaging strain and battering on the hand, cylinder ratchet and stop notches, and to a lesser degree, the bolt. You and Pohill refer to wear, but in fact there should be next to none. That's why the original revolvers lasted as well as they did, even though they were - by today's standards - made out of inferior steel.

It’s also the reason so many reproductions go to pieces early in life.

Welding up a short trigger is "a" solution, but it isn't the only one.

Remington's are no different then Colt's. The internal lockwork works exactly the same. The battering and pounding that can cause problems in a Colt will do exactly the same in a Remi. However there, I believe they addressed the issue through trigger length. For that matter the same can be done with Colt's, but as you will eventually learn, Colt used the backstrap because it worked better on a production basis, and there was little or no chance the backstrap would wear or break. One weakness in both Colt’s and Remington’s is that the tip of the trigger is thin and very fragile.

When you cock the relatively large hammer on one of these revolvers you can exert considerable force on the much smaller hand, and asking that little nub on top of the bolt to engage a shallow notch in the cylinder to absorb the shock and stop the cylinder's rotation while it's still being pushed by the hand is a little much.

Use the gray matter between your ears and think about it.

 

[pohill]

Use the gray matter between your ears and think about it

Actually, I like to think that mine is a plumb brown.
My plumb brown matter kicked in and said, "Proof - I need proof in the way of facts." Not drawings, not opinions...facts. Think about that.

 

[Old Fuff]

Pohill:

I think if I told ya’ that the sun comes up in the east, and sets in the west, you’d say….

“Prove it!”

You can’t prove anything to someone who is determined that they won’t change their mind.

And for that matter, why am I obligated to prove anything to you? Explain maybe, but nothing more. If you really understood anything about how the Colt/Remington internals worked, and had an open mind by now you would have started thinking about the stresses that occur when the bolt locks the cylinder but the hammer can still advance the hand.

Eventually, given time to do it, I will offer a detailed explanation, although by now I have dropped some major clues – which you chose to ignore or evade.

I am not doing what I am to impress any particular person or persons, I’m doing it for the benefit of those that are both open minded and interested. If I convince any of them I’m satisfied. Anyone else really doesn’t matter.

Rather then make caustic remarks, why don’t you post a thoughtful rebuttal explaining your position and exactly why you disagree with what I have presented. Offer your solutions to the battered lockwork issues in reproduction cap & ball revolvers.

That’s sort of The High Road way to do it.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

You is straining ya' luck. I ain't had any coffee yet this morning...

I think you may be strainin' something in with your coffee, sorry was up all nite cause a this here 'Fluff ...LMBPAO!

One weakness in both Colt’s and Remington’s is that the tip of the trigger is thin and very fragile.

I got ya on the tips.
Well the only way Colts are alike Rems in the Lockworks is that they both Lock up. Ohter wise Remington has a much better Lockup systemTrigger, bolt, single screw, better hammer, pawl config., bolt comes up slowly) than Colt...but that's another conversation.

Use the gray matter between your ears and think about it.

I did and it only took me 30 seconds to respond.
Here's the main response; How can you pull the hammer all the way back to the backstrap and have the tip of the trigger fall into that notch of the hammer and release the hammer with out it moving forward to hold the tip of the trigger in place? The hammer conceivably could not stay tight against the backstrap or frame...would have to move even if it was .0005" to whatever. Do you follow me on this Fluff? The trigger when pulled moves the hammer back enough to release it's self from the notch. :banghead:

SG

 

[Old Fuff]

If you keep it up I'm going to have to put something in my coffee...

If you look at the drawing I posted notice how the tip of the trigger rotates out of contact with the notch...

Anyway, the purpose of blocking further rotation of the hammer is to take strain off of the hand, which will try to move upwards pushing the ratchet. But if the bolt has locked the cylinder the hand cannot move any further, so it gets squeezed between the pin at the bottom and the tip at the top which is up against the ratchet tooth. A few thousandths of clearance needed to allow the trigger to move won't be enough to compromise the positive effects of having the hammer blocked.

If the distance between the back of the hammer and the backstrap (or whatever else has been introduced to act as a stop) is excessive the tip of the hand, the ratchet tooth, and the notches in the cylinder as well as the ball on the bolt will all suffer.

While the parts are different between a Colt and Remington, the basic mechanics are similar. The factors that can induce excessive strain on the hand, ratchet and cylinder notches are the same. For our purposes the elimination of the trigger or bolt screw and using a common one makes no difference.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

A few thousandths of clearance needed to allow the trigger to move won't be enough to compromise the positive effects of having the hammer blocked.

I don't wanna be the cause of you puttin' sumfin' in your coffee you din't like.

So a few thousands or even if the cylinder was not trying to rotate via Da hand, while the bolt was locked in the cylinder slot there wouldn't "be enough to compromise the positive effects of having the hammer blocked"??? I'm with ya on this and the few .001's movement bein KooL. But my anal thinking process tells me .005" ain't locked up at the backstrap. Now I got Revs that will lock up (Bolt) and move tha hammer back ..252" or a 1/4". Now half that distance .130" + a few.001" more the hand does not hit the cylinders ratchet to try and push it thus bein' squashed or damaged...the balance of the travel you do indeed feel a movement of the cylinder. The hand is unmarked no sign of any damage not even a mark. I got this about a month ago it's an engraved not Italian Rem (Her name is Barbie)that they stopped making 20 years ago(that was a hint for you). I put 4 clyinders of BP and .457" balls thru it a week ago to try it out.
Anyway I guess my point being that if you Backstrap/Hammerstop/trigger latch/ Bolt lock within but not more than .125" from hammer to frame you 'd probly be safe to say as long as you are takin' the stress off your pawl(hand).
Wadda ya thinks?

 

[Old Fuff]

This is a Remington clone, right?

Remove the cylinder. Bring the hammer back to full-cock. Next, observe the hand while you ear the hammer back as far as it will go.

How much further does the hand move between the full-cock position and when the hammer stops? If it moves far enough to stress the hand & ratchet, and/or put rotational pressure on the bolt's ball while it is trying to move into a cylinder notch then it's too much movement.

Next, replace the cylinder and remove the trigger guard, bolt & trigger spring and bolt (leave in the trigger). Looking through the window in the bottom of the frame, line up one of the cylinder's notches in the window while the hammer is fully forward. Slowly cock the hammer while putting light pressure on the trigger so that it will engage the full-cock notch. Meantime watch through the window to see if the cylinder is turned to - short of the next notch, to the notch, or past the notch. Then for grins, bring the hammer back as far as it will go, and watch to see how much further the cylinder revolves.

If, when the hammer is at full-cock, the cylinder has rotated past the notch, you can shorten the hand.

Putting a hammer stop in a Remington is more difficult then doing so in a Colt, but it can be done.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

How much further does the hand move between the full-cock position and when the hammer stops?

1) Hand Moves .117"

Slowly cock the hammer while putting light pressure on the trigger so that it will engage the full-cock notch. Meantime watch through the window to see if the cylinder is turned to - short of the next notch, to the notch, or past the notch.

2)Bolt hits the cylinder at .020" from edge of slot to center Line of bolt head or edge of bolt hits edge of slot before engaging.

Thanks for walkin me thru that, I knew what you meant but it's hard to put together all that one has done on all differant kinds of Guns a certain way and try to understand in type what one is speaking of...I think we done good....LoL!


SG

 

[Old Fuff]

2)Bolt hits the cylinder at .020" from edge of slot to center Line of bolt head or edge of bolt hits edge of slot before engaging.

That sounds good, but what you need to determine is if the hand is turning the cylinder past the notch. You can only do this when the bolt is taken out so you can look through the little window in the bottom of the frame, line up a notch in that window, and then bring the hammer to full-cock and see if the cylinder has rotated past the next notch or not.

Then do the same thing, but bring the hammer as far back as it will go.

As a rule of thumb, most reproduction cap & ball revolvers will rotate the cylinder past the second notch, and sometimes substantially so.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

How much further does the hand move between the full-cock position and when the hammer stops?

1) Hand Moves .117"

I din't remove the bolt yet but I will, hell I'm still workin' on dinner. Looks like Stuffed Bell peppers tonite...only takes 15 min. (Stoffurs)

If the hand moves that far then the cylinder slot will overshoot the bolt head by .117"...sound right? I get it, if I don't slam the hammer back to the backstrap I ain't hurtin' the pawl(hand) top or the cyl. slot , and bolt. If it stopped at(or very close) to the backstrap less or no damage would occur.
That sound like it Old Fluff?

 

[Old Fuff]

You're getting close. The bolt may or may not overshoot the notch, but having the hand still pushing the cylinder while the bolt is entering the notch will cause the edge and far side of the notch to be battered. At the same time if the hand is still trying to advance; but can't because the bolt has locked the cylinder it will take a beating too, as will the ratchet tooth. The harder and faster the hammer is cocked, the more damage will occur.

The cylinder is relatively soft - in both current copies and 19th century guns. The bolt is much harder. The bolt and notch are suppose to lock the cylinder so that the chamber is concentric with the bore, not act as a block or stop to keep the cylinder from over-rotating.

If something (the backstrap in my example – which Colt used) stops the hammer from rotating too far and the hand and bolt are correctly fitted then wear and damage to those parts is next to eliminated, and so is a lot of cylinder notch peening.

While Colt used the backstrap to stop the hammer, there are other ways. Colt had a factory full of parts, and used a process called “selective fitting” with some parts rather then the “file & fit” method on each and every revolver, although some fitting was usually required. Someone with a replica, and only the parts that came in it, may wish to do things differently.

But we’ll go into that on another occasion, and Smokin Gun gets an A+++ for doing some thinking.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Thanks Old Fluff, that's the general consensus on my end too. If the application fits then use it, what ever the application be. The if Colt tried and used the Backstrap stop method can see it saving wear & tear on parts. Also if Colt used which ever parts or methods worked best I understand that too.
So we can add the method of B/S Stop to the alternate methods we are using or haven't used yet in both Originals and Reproduction Revs.
Goes to show you anything that you can make work learn it and use it...even in making a Forum discussion work


SG

 

[pohill]

No one has to prove anything to anyone- not me, not you, not Rifle...no one.
My thoughtful rebuttal to the statement that Colt intended the backstrap to act as a stop would be simply that I have seen nothing in any patent, or anywhere, that would indicate that as being true. Anything more would be an assumption by closed minded people that might not know as much as they think based on who knows what.
This does not mean that the backstrap does not, or should not, act as a stop, just that Colt did not intend it to from what I have read and seen.

 

[mykeal]

Anything more would be an assumption by closed minded people that might not know as much as they think based on who knows what.

Or a rational conclusion based on deductive reasoning. It's entirely reasonable to deduce someone's intent from the physical evidence of their designs. You don't always need it written out in longhand. And it's also entirely reasonable that rational people can come to different conclusions on examining the same evidence. That doesn't mean one's mind is closed.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Pohill my pard, I feel where you are comming from and understand the fact that a document or a book haven't been brought forth, in the form of Colt patient, that states Colt used the backstrap as a stop referance point for the hammer. Whether someone will ever come up with a Procedure Sheet or Instruction paper that was done on the fly then documented by Colt we may never know.
"And I do know that that was you and Rifles Point."

I do know you are very familiar with Colt functioning and timing, also wedges and framework. And purdy sure you found the "Dimensional"information intersting as you have expirianced simular problems with the many Revs both 3rd Gen. and Original you have worked on of your own.
I t will be very difficult to trace records as the Colt Connecticut Factory burned down. But if we talk about this enough and keep askin about it, maybe we'll stumble on to someone that's Great Grandfather had a saved a work order or a Tech report...Who knows?

SG