Colt Commander Loaded?

[alantlee24210]

Is it safe to carry a Colt Commander with a shell in the chamber and the hammer in the half-cock position?

 

[Sistema1927]

No, No, NO!

Fully cocked with safety on or hammer down on an empty chamber. Never carry loaded on half cock.

 

[rcmodel]

No.

Chamber loaded?
Either carry it cocked & Locked.

Or lower the hammer all the way down against the rear of the slide.

All 1911 pistols use an inertia firing pin.
Meaning the FP is shorter then the hole in the slide.

The only way it can touch or fire a primer is if the hammer hits it going fast enough to drive it out of the slide far enough to reach the primer.

The hammer cannot hit the firing pin if it is already resting against the slide.

From half-cock, it can hit the firing pin if you drop the gun on the hammer, and the sear or safety notch break.

Recommended is Loaded, Cocked, and Locked.
Alternative = Loaded, hammer fully down against the slide.
(But then you run a risk lowering the hammer, and cocking it again.)

Cocked & Locked.
The grip safety tang protects the hammer spur from impact.
And the thumb & grip safety prevent the gun from firing unless you are holding it properly, take the thumb safety off, and pull the trigger.

rc

 

[JTQ]

This video may be helpful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2-1IZk1A28

 

[Coyote3855]

No.

Chamber loaded?
Either carry it cocked & Locked.

Or lower the hammer all the way down against the rear of the slide.

All 1911 pistols use an inertia firing pin.
Meaning the FP is shorter then the hole in the slide.

The only way it can touch or fire a primer is if the hammer hits it going fast enough to drive it out of the slide far enough to reach the primer.

The hammer cannot hit the firing pin if it is already resting against the slide.

From half-cock, it can hit the firing pin if you drop the gun on the hammer, and the sear or safety notch break.

Recommended is Loaded, Cocked, and Locked.
Alternative = Loaded, hammer fully down against the slide.
(But then you run a risk lowering the hammer, and cocking it again.)

Cocked & Locked.
The grip safety tang protects the hammer spur from impact.
And the thumb & grip safety prevent the gun from firing unless you are holding it properly, take the thumb safety off, and pull the trigger.

rc

Great advice and recommendation from rc. I've been carrying a 1911 for almost 55 years. Shot them in competition for 10 years. Never thought about the tang protecting the hammer spur. I learn something from rc about once a week.

 

[Drail]

RC can kill you with just his brain.

 

[jimherb]

No.

 

[jeepnik]

This video may be helpful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2-1IZk1A28

One of the best explanations and demonstrations I've seen on the matter.

 

[SSN Vet]

For me personally, dropping the hammer to set up Condition 2 carry is not the problem... obey the four rules, and you're covered, even if you do slip and go bang.

BUT... if you don't have a firing pin block (Series 80 mechanism on Colts or Swartz mechanism on Kimbers) or a low mass firing pin (usually Titanium), Condition 2 can result in an accidental discharge if you drop the gun straight down on it's barrel, as the inertia of the firing pin can pop the loaded round.

My understanding is that this is exactly why many 1911's can't be sold in CA, as they don't pass their stringent drop test requirements.

 

[JTQ]

BUT... if you don't have a firing pin block (Series 80 mechanism on Colts or Swartz mechanism on Kimbers) or a low mass firing pin (usually Titanium), Condition 2 can result in an accidental discharge if you drop the gun straight down on it's barrel, as the inertia of the firing pin can pop the loaded round.

It is not significant to Condition 2. Without a firing pin block the issue is possible in either Condition 1 or Condition 2.

 

[Bama Drifter]

Carry the darned thing as God and John Browning intended... Condition 1: Cocked, Locked, & ready to ROCK!

Seriously, not to hurt the feelings of OP or anyone new to the classic .45 Automatic, but why the heck ask? I myself am not a gunsmith, so don't fully understand the purpose of the half cock notch... but don't use it as a carry method, plz. OK, thanks. YMMV, Rant over

 

[Drail]

Browning did not "intend" for the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. His personal 1911 had no thumb safety so he definitely was not carrying his personal gun "cocked and locked". That gun is in the Browning museum and has been photographed many times and shown in numerous publications. The Army Ordnance Board demanded and got the thumb safety added. You have to remember that this pistol was designed after many years of people carrying single action revolvers - which were cocked as they were drawn and de-cocked as they were holstered. This was an entirely acceptable practice at that time. I have read several historical accounts that Browning personally carried semi auto pistols with the hammer down or on half cock and thumbed the hammer to full cock upon drawing it - and lowered the hammer when re-holstering. The Ordnance Board submitted a request for a new service pistol built to their specs - and Browning gave them exactly what they asked for. He was a contractor. Interestingly, the Army has always required the gun to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber even with all of the safeties that they required (a rule that was frequently ignored in the field). I do not believe Browning gave any thought to how the pistol was to be carried and probably couldn't have cared less. His job was to make it powerful enough for the job which at that time was to drop an enemy soldier's horse and put him on the ground. Most of the Army in those days were still Cavalry troops. If it would drop a horse it would easily drop a man.

 

[1911Tuner]

The captive half cock notch is a safety, by design and intent. In function, it's identical to Browning's other half cock safeties on his guns that only had the half cock as a safety. The Model 1894 Winchester is one example.

Additionally, the half cock is described as the "Safety Position" in the 1910 patents, along with instruction for lowering the hammer to that position with one hand.

1910 Colt photo courtesy of Charles Clawson.

 

[tipoc]

My understanding is that this is exactly why many 1911's can't be sold in CA, as they don't pass their stringent drop test requirements.

This information is incorrect. 1911s routinely passed the drop test in Ca. for years. Including "Series 70" guns. It was the passage of new regulations that made it difficult for some models to get in.

tipoc

 

[Bama Drifter]

The captive half cock notch is a safety, by design and intent. In function, it's identical to Browning's other half cock safeties on his guns that only had the half cock as a safety. The Model 1894 Winchester is one example.

Additionally, the half cock is described as the "Safety Position" in the 1910 patents, along with instruction for lowering the hammer to that position with one hand.

1910 Colt photo courtesy of Charles Clawson.

Thanks 1911Tuner for posting above photo... 1st time I've seen one w/out the safety. What you say makes tons of sense.

I will rephrase my answer: Carry it as God and Jeff Cooper intended: COCKED & Locked!

 

[1911Tuner]

The manual safety...aka thumb safety...pretty much rendered the half cock safety a moot point, but it remained as part of the design until the appearance of the Colt Series 80s and the flat quarter-cock shelf, and many other manufacturers still retain it.

 

[Control]

In response to the critisims of the 1908 field trials, Browning did submit a hammerless .45 that basically looked liked a scaled up 1903 Pocket Model. This design had no visible hammer and a thumb safety. It was perhaps designed to be carried cocked and locked since the hammer cannot be lowered.

The army liked just about everything on the pistol but they wanted a visible hammer. Browning gave them a version with a visible hammer but then got rid of the thumb safety. Perhaps he felt that a thumb safety was not required with a visible hammer since it could be lowered to make the gun safe? Regardless, he then added a thumb safety to the visible hammer variant due to a request from the army. This final variant became the 1911.

I'll agree 100% that browning likely didn't care how this final version was carried. Hammer down. Cocked and locked. Hammer at half cock. All were safe. He was probably glad the army didn't want any more changes and he was also glad to have passed the reliability trials.

Browning experimented with a great many things. Hammerless designs. Striker fired designs. Grip safety's that blocked the firing pin. Internal extractors. External extractors. He was a tinkerer and did not seem to get locked in to any one way of doing things.

If Browning were alive today you could ask him. His response would likely be that he has forgotten about the 1911. He would then hand you his prototype for a fully functional light saber.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

It is unsafe, but I'm looking at it from a different angle or perspective. It is unsafe in the sense that you can't get the gun into action fast enough when you need it (and if you need it, you really need it). The hammer must still be brought back to full cock before the gun can be fired. Maybe with the original "hand biter" design this is easy to do, but with a round hammer and beavertail grip safety, it is all but impossible one-handed and fast. It is much easier to wipe off the safety as the gun clears your body than to cock the hammer. The best combination of speed into action and safety is cocked and locked.