Colt DA Revolver Help

[ArchAngelCD]

I have an offer to buy 2 old Colt revolvers and I know nothing about pricing of Colts.

Both are double action Colt Army Specials.
One is in 32-20
Other is marked 38 but no other caliber information.
Both have 6" barrels and both have minor pitting on the cylinders and hammer but I would guess they are about 80%.

The 32-20 dates to 1922 and the 38 dates to 1912, both have the original grips and they are not cracked or chipped. Sorry I couldn't take any photos or I would have posted them.

Any estimates on price would be appreciated. It's a package deal so I can't just buy the 32-20 like I want to...

 

[788Ham]

I'd wait for Guillermo to chime in here! He's a Colt fanatic, I know he'll know.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'd wait for Guillermo to chime in here! He's a Colt fanatic, I know he'll know.

I hope so because I'm not sure this deal will be available indefinitely.

Just a note, included in the deal is a 6.5" barrel S&W Model of 1905 Five Screw 2nd Change in 90+ condition.

1908 S&W Model Of 1905 Serial #122***
1912 Colt Army Special Serial #347***
1922 Colt Army Special Serial #475***

 

[Checkman]

I've seen the older Army Specials go for between $450-$600 apiece in my area (southwestern Idaho). Much depends on condition of course. The Model of 1905 M&P tend to sell for between $450 and $500 as well. But if it's a target model then figure another $50 tacked onto the price or even $100. The second hand market is very fluid when it comes to prices.

Last November I picked up a really sweet pre-WWII Colt Officer Model Target for $500 and a 1957 4" Colt Trooper in .38 Special for only $375. But on the same day (at the same shop) I purchased the Colt Trooper I looked at a S&W Model 15from the early seventies that was priced for $450. Go figure.

 

[Old Fuff]

The .38 would be chambered in .38 Special.

The Army Special was introduced in 1908, but in 1927 the name (but not the gun) was changed to Official Police and production continued until about 1969. There isn't much demand for either, especially with 6" barrels. Of the two, the .38 Special would probably be the better (or at least more popular) shooter. If problems develop finding parts and qualified gunsmiths is difficult. The Colt factory will no longer work on them. There is some collector interest, but not in the condition you describe.

I'm not sure what your intentions are toward them, but I wouldn't offer over $500 for the pair, if that.

Go to THR's revolver sub-forum and you will find a checklist for inspecting used revolvers - in particular Colt's. Go over both revolvers with a fine-tooth comb, because if they are out-of-time getting them fixed could cost as much a buying the guns.

If none of this bothers you and you see them as something to "play around with," go ahead so long as you don't have to pay to much. They are (or at least were) good, solid revolvers and the basis of the more famous Colt Python.

 

[Guillermo]

Wow Fuff...you are CHEAP.

I have not seen either one go for less than 400 in a while with 500 being the norm.

Personally, I would prefer the 80% over a re blue.

Old Fuff is correct, repairs can be difficult. Check them out VERY carefully. (the revolver sticky at the top is excellent. The only difference is "lock up". With a Colt, pull the UNLOADED gun's hammer back, pull the trigger and let the hammer down while holding the trigger back. There should be NO (sero, nada, zilch) cylinder rotation. I use a dowel to check alignment)

I love old revolvers but even I would pause unless I got a REALLY good deal, 650 for the pair. Especially since you only want one.

 

[Old Fuff]

I have not seen either one go for less than 400 in a while with 500 being the norm.

I would agree that $400-$500 is a reasonable price range for a revolver in collectable condition, which means 95% and up. Keep in mind that collectors, not shooters are the likely big spenders.

At 80% collectors are not going to be interested, and I have no photographs to base a further opinion.

As a rule of thumb, fixed sight revolvers in .38 Special with 6" barrels are in the least demand so far as non-collectors are concerned. More so with .32-20's.

The Army Special was (and sometimes still is) a fine revolver, but parts for it are increasing hard to find, and engineering changes invalidate using post WW2 ones. Salvage parts, taken from other guns were hand-fitted to the gun they came in, and may not work in a different one. Even qualified gunsmiths hesitate to take on a job where finding needed parts is questionable. When they do the charges are substantially high, and although reasonable it may not seem so to the individual who has to pay.

As I posted, I do not know what the O.P intentions are, but I personally would not pay over $250 for one, or $500 the pair, without knowing a lot more then I do now. If either revolver has issues the real value is equal to the parts that are in them.

 

[Guillermo]

as ones with the "old revolver disease" we should be telling him to "just say no" and "seek help"

 

[MtnSpur]

I'm thinking max of $300 per IF they are indeed 80% and mechanically sound and that's mainly due to the original stocks/grips being the flueur-de-lis pattern and intact (they can bring some decent change by themselves). The revolver itself really hasn't stood out as a collectible unless the condtion is 90% or better. As has been pointed out if an issue arises about function there are not many gunsmiths that can repair or get parts to repair the old girls correctly.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you all, you have confirmed my suspicions that the deal offered was not as good as I would like it to be. The offer was $1,100 OTD for all 3 guns. I thought that was just about full retail for those 3 in the condition they are in so it's really no big deal.

I think I'll pass on this one or try to get the one I want as a solo purchase instead of trying to sell off the other 2.

Thanks again guys. You have all been a big help as usual...

 

[SaxonPig]

Model should be stamped on the barrel.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Model should be stamped on the barrel.

The model is not in question, both Colts are Army Specials.

 

[SaxonPig]

Oops. Missed it. My bad.

All Colts are pretty much through the roof. But corrosion is a real drag on value (as in, I don't buy it).

The 6" is maybe the most common and least sought after.

I think I would expect to see either offered at $400. I am thinking $300. But what do I know?

 

[Guillermo]

But what do I know?

more than 99.9999% of the population

 

[evan price]

The last two Army Special 38's I bought were in well used condition but went for under $200.

A genuine 80% gun would be about $300 imho. The 32-20 is a handloaders cartridge due to expense.
Offer the guy $900 for all three. That 5-screw Smith is nice too.

 

[smkummer]

Army specials have the same action as a python and some parts are the same but fitting can be a issue. Because of this, Colt may work on it but it would take a phone call to them to find out. Timing can be a issue on older Colts but Jerry Kuh. puts out a shop manual for these guns that someone with moderate skill can do about 1/2 of the procudures in this manual. On some other gun forums such as the Coltforum, that 32-20 would sell fast. I have a army special 38 in a 5 in. barrel and its a sweet shooter. That vintage Smith is also a nice shooter.

 

[Old Fuff]

Army specials have the same action as a python and some parts are the same

In general, but not in particular. The is in the details.

Between 1927 and 1969 a lot of small but critical engineering changes were made. What looks to be the same often isn't.

And the problem is compounded by the fact that Colt is no longer making or selling Python parts.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Another point is, if you want the .32-20 check carefully for a bulged barrel. In earlier times, the .32-20 was loaded as a rifle cartridge, and the powder used would not fully combust in a revolver, leading to low pressure, leading to a bullet stuck in the barrel, leading to . . .

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Another point is, if you want the .32-20 check carefully for a bulged barrel. In earlier times, the .32-20 was loaded as a rifle cartridge, and the powder used would not fully combust in a revolver, leading to low pressure, leading to a bullet stuck in the barrel, leading to . . .

Good point and although I didn't think of that directly I did check the barrels of all 3 for any kind of problems. I did so because I saw the 2 Colts before they were cleaned up and thought they would never sell. After the clean up they were in surprisingly good condition considering with a lot less pitting that I thought there was going to be. I guess the dirt that was left on the gun protected the finish more than I thought.

The barrels were so dirty inside I really thought they were shot out. After cleaning the rifling was crisp, clean and defined. I guess the dirt was a blessing in disguise.

 

[damienph]

.38 Army Special

The .38 would be chambered in .38 Special.

Couldn't that also be chambered in .38 Long Colt? My 1901 Army has ".38" stamped on barrel and will chamber .38 specials.

 

[Old Fuff]

Be careful!!

Just because it will chamber .38 Specials does not mean it was intended to shoot them, and ".38" does not mean .38 Special! All of Colt's revolvers that were intended to use the .38 Long Colt cartridge had chambers that were bored straight through from back to front with no smaller diameter throat at the front. This was because the cartridge had a heeled bullet where the front part was the same diameter as the cartridge case. Today the same kind of construction is used in (for example) the .22 long rifle, and .22 rimfire chambers in revolvers are bored straight through.

Returning to your Colt Model 1901. It is an improved version of a revolver adopted by the U.S. military services in 1892. They will actually chamber some .357 Magnum rounds! Hopefully I do not have to explain why you wouldn't want to shoot one, in what is now a revolver that's well over 100 years old.

The only .38 Special ammmunition I would suggest (but not recommend) shooting in your relic is the mid-range target load that has a 148 grain full-wadcutter bullet and a reduced powder charge that comes close to duplicating the .38 Long Colt's performance.

The Army Special (Introduced in 1908) was never chambered in .38 Long Colt, but it can be safely used with both .38 Special and .38 Long Colt cartridges.

 

[MtnSpur]

The Army Special (Introduced in 1908) was never chambered in .38 Long Colt, but it can be safely used with both .38 Special and .38 Long Colt cartridges.

You mean TBOCF has made another (yes there are some) error?

Not to be difficult, nor contrary....PG 342 "Calibers-.32-20, 38 long and short Colt...."

If one can't trust a book written by a felon, who do we trust?

 

[Old Fuff]

Last time I looked you can fire .38 Short Colt and .38 Long Colt in any revolver chambered in .38 Special. Colt did take note of this in some of their period catalogs when the two Colt cartridges were still popular and easily available. Never the less, they did not specifically offer the Army Special in either .38 Short or Long Colt. Instead they made the model in .32-20 (.32 WCF), .38 Special and .41 Long Colt (that could also fire .41 Short Colt).

 

[Guillermo]

The only .38 Special ammmunition I would suggest (but not recommend) shooting in your relic is the mid-range target load that has a 148 grain full-wadcutter bullet and a reduced powder charge that comes close to duplicating the .38 Long Colt's performance.

this is right but even with the same reduced powder load, the modern, smokeless powder burns much faster and chamber pressure is higher.

there is an answer, albeit, an expensive one
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/137/1/AMMO-G-38-LC

 

[Old Fuff]

this is right but even with the same reduced powder load, the modern, smokeless powder burns much faster and chamber pressure is higher.

True, but the .38 Special (mid-range only) load is reduced enough so there shouldn't be a problem. Still in my view if the gun is over 100 years old some serious thought should be given to retiring it. Generally speaking because of the oversized .360" bore in the barrel, accuracy isn’t particularly outstanding.

If one is determined to shoot one of these old revolvers another option is to reload the ammunition using black powder in .38 Special cases. This is perhaps the safest way to go, but I wonder if it’s worth the trouble.