Colt SAA and Italian Clone Makers in the 1970’s?

[Lyonheart]

Is it true that the Italian clone makers were making SAA’s so close to Colt revolvers specifications that parts were interchangeable? Did Colt sue to stop them? Were any of the Clones quality guns? Have you ever owned one? Was it any good?

My research on the THR Threads and the net has been inconclusive, but thorough.

In the interest of saving time/words, I am already convinced that there is nothing like a real Colt, more authentic, more accurate, more valuable, etc.

At the turn of the Century you could buy a new Colt for a $10 dollar US gold piece; you still can!

Your input would be very much appreciated!

 

[Ron James]

Why would they sue to stop them? The design is over a hundred years old, any patents are long expired, look how many people are making copies of the Colt 1911. Plus Colt had stopped making the single action. Many of the copies of the Single action being made today are almost exact copies of the old Colt. Some of the old clones were good, some not so good. If you want details you would have to research old firearm test and reports. The reproductions being made today are much better and stronger and most parts will interchange. Having said that , Great Western was one of the better old reproductions. Next time you watch an old episode of Gunsmoke, look at Matt Dillon"s '"Colt ". A new Colt today would take a Double Eagle (20 dollar gold ) to buy ( One ounce of gold ). Also at the turn of the Century 10 dollars was 1/3 of a cowboys monthly pay. Contrary to popular misconception more " cowboys ' and bad men carried cheaper guns such as H&Rs Or Iver Johnson's.

 

[rcmodel]

I have Colt's, and a Cimarron .45 Colt SAA made by Uberti.

I put a real 1st. Gen Colt 32-20 cylinder & barrel on it several years ago. The barrel threads are the same.

My experiance with them is no, they are not the same quality as a real Colt, in either quality of the raw parts, or fit & finish of them.

Right now, I believe only USFA makes a Colt clone that is the equal to, if not better then a real Colt. But the price is about the same if not more too.

rc

 

[Virginian]

They are still making SAA clones with parts that will interchange with a first generation Colt. They are not of the material quality of a second or third generation Colt in my opinion, and I have no experience with first generation Colts. Only the very expensive ones have real case colored frames. The newer Cimarrons have made a design improvement change in that they have eliminated the small leaf spring on the hand. If you change the trigger/bolt leaf spring with a Wolff wire spring, the only leaf spring that will then be left is the main spring - leaf springs are not as durable as music wire springs.
In my opinion, anything but a Colt is only a clone, I don't care how nicely they finish it or how much they charge for it. Think custom hand built Ferarri replica. It ain't the real thing.
I do not consider the New Model Rugers clones. Too many design changes. I like Rugers too, but for being Rugers, not clones.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so feel free to disagree.

 

[Lyonheart]

Update!

Thanks for the information! Here is what I have gathered so far:

There are interchangeable parts (barrels, cylinders Thanks! RC) and flat springs, etc.

From a couple of gunsmiths, they keep their Colts in the safe and shoot the Italian clones, and like them. The studios use the clones for cowboy action because the value of Colts is so high...didn't know that Matt Dillon didn't carry a Colt?

There has been a disconnect between gold values and Colt values. There is no such thing as a real replica. Material quality varies along with finish etc.

Current clones at the high end are pretty good and pricey.

According to other sources, the actions are not as smooth as a Colt.

Can anyone else add any answers to the original questions?

Thanks!

 

[CajunBass]

I had a Mitchell Arms Single Action in 45 Colt, back in the 80's or so. It functioned and looked like a Colt, but I have no idea what the internals were like, or how well it shot since I never fired it. It was a nice looking gun in it's own right, but was a long way from a Colt. I would assume it was made overseas, but I'm sure someone who knows more than I do will correct me if that's wrong.

 

[9mmepiphany]

back in the days of Gunsmoke, Rawhide and such, the greatest SAA copies was the Great Western guns.

they actually have a collector value very comparable to Colts

 

[Beelzy]

Interarms had a nice SA called the Virginian Dragoon. Hefty gun and the fit and finish is
fairly nice for a $400 gun.

Nothing beats a Genuine Colt though.

 

[Lyonheart]

Update

Is it true that the Italian clone makers were making SAA’s so close to Colt revolvers specifications that parts were interchangeable?

Thanks to Virginian and rcmodel’s first hand experience and that of others I have found, frames , barrels and cylinders are interchangeable between some models, as are other components. Clones came from a number of sources, domestic and international. There are lots of variations.

The first Clones were domestic (as far as I can tell) and came from Great Western (thanks 9mmepiphany and Ron James!) in the Los Angeles area and were mostly exact replica’s, some using Colt parts like hammers. The company was actively filling customer needs for SAA’s from about 1953 until 1962. Chances are if you fell in love with Colts, like I did, by watching some Western series on TV, the guns you fell in love with were not Colts! But they were likely to be American made!

This link will take you to the Great Western site and pictures of their products including price lists. I was surprised Matt Dillon’s Colt was not likely a Colt; you can imagine my shock seeing the picture of John Wayne with Great Westerns! http://www.greatwesternfirearms.com/htm/models.htm

The Clone Imports soon followed and were imported and marketed by lots of companies; the manufacturers included: Hammerli (Swiss), and the Italians Uberti , Pietta, Jager, Armi San Marcos, et. Al.

The most interesting summary/history that I found on Colt SAA’s and Clones was by John Taffin and can be found at http://www.sixguns.com/range/colt.htm

Did Colt sue to stop them?

Nope! Thanks Ron James. Colt came back to the market after abandoning it during WWII. Colt made it difficult to sell Clones and make money.

Were any of the Clones quality guns?

Yes! See below.

Have you ever owned one?

There are lots of Clones in North America. At one point, Mitchell Arms (Thanks Cajun Bass!) had 100,000 SAA’s in their warehouse, waiting for distribution! They were a small operation that distributed Uberti’s. Considering all the distribution channels, I would welcome someone else’s estimate about how many Clones are in circulation. Funny thing, some of the owners have not even shot their Clone, right CajunBass?

Was it any good?

This question has answers all over the map; let’s start with the bad news:

One owner voted his Clone as the “worst handgun” he had ever owned; and would never buy another. After shooting 500 rounds of 357 over several weekends... the screws worked loose and were falling out. A real Colt shooter would know about Blue Locktite, but real Colts don’t include loose screws, do they? It was not a good gun for this shooter.

Most of the Clones are well used in Cowboy Action, game getting, some target work, fast draw practice, bed side security and they seem to fancy showing up at Bar B Q’s! In short, they are good enough! But, almost without exception, the comment was made “It is NOT a Colt!”

Some of the Clones are beyond good and almost great (for a non Colt)! Interarms got into the SAA business by importing Hammerli’s, better known for their Olympic style semi automatics at the time. This was the first Virginian SAA from this company and was by all accounts a well made, well finished, great shooting value. The Dragoons (Thanks Beelzy!) could also be an Uberti Clone depending on when it was made. This is a useful link on Interarms: http://www.singleactions.com/VADragoons.pdf

UPDATE: My thanks to all who offered input and direction. Additional comments, corrections and opinions are welcome. Ron James suggested that research on old firearms tests and reports would be useful. Other than one reference to American Rifleman from the 1970’s, I was not able to check these sources. Links to those would be appreciated, if you can help!

Economics and Value have always driven the revolver market. Ron James pointed out “A new Colt today would take a Double Eagle (20 dollar gold ) to buy ( One ounce of gold ). Also at the turn of the Century 10 dollars was 1/3 of a cowboys monthly pay. Contrary to popular misconception more “cowboys” and bad men carried cheaper guns such as H&Rs Or Iver Johnson's.” Those were not Clones, just cheaper alternatives based on a willingness to pay. Add to that what Virginian stated “Think custom hand built Ferarri replica. It ain't the real thing.” Clones are not Colts, but they do fit the needs and budget for many.

 

[Jim Watson]

Anecdotes and small sample statistics:

A 1970s article on the Dakota SA pointed out that it lacked a firing pin bushing and should not be dryfired because that would bulge the breechface. You have to know that was a flaw if it made it into print in a gunzine without being laughed off somehow.

Not a SAA, but a comparable early reproduction; I had one of the Belgian Centennial 1860 cap and ball reproductions. It was a jewel, well fitted and finished. A friend still has a pair. One is as nice as mine, the other is, as we say around here, rough as a cob.

I had a Mitchell imported Uberti. It was clearly not up to the appearance standards of Ubertis from other importers, but it shot well enough, at least with the .45 Colt cylinder. The included .45 ACP cylinder would not reliably lock up. Strangely enough, it worked fine in a friend's Mitchell, so I sold the spare cylinder to him and traded the sixgun for an automatic.

Point being that you cannot generalize too far from individual accounts.