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Colt Series 70: How's it Eat Hollows?

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HMMurdock

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Indiana, the home of John Dillinger
I have a stockpile of Speer GoldDot .45's. I want to get a Colt Series 70 (yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave the "what about a Springfield" or "try a Kimber" comments for another thread. I'm inheriting a Colt (think of it that way). How well will she take my hollowpoint ammo?

Would it make a difference if it were an old Series 70 or one of the new reproductions? Thanks.
 
Browning designed the platform around a particular cartridge (230-grain ball) that the Army specified. Little did he know that in the future it would be expected to feed any and every bullet configuration and cartridge overall length (COL) today’s gunnies could invent or think up. So it's largely a question of a particular gun and cartridge combination. Some work, some don't.

The two most important factors are magazines where the lips’ design and length can be critical, along with the magazine follower. If you want to stuff 8 rounds into a box designed to hold 7, you might (or might not) run into some issues. Personally I rather go with 7 rounds rather then risk a malfunction.

Also if the extractor isn't correctly fitted and tensioned you can expect trouble.

Last but not least, don't fall for the "throat the barrel" line of B.S. Why? Because the barrel already comes that way.

Personally I have owned both pre-70 and 70 Series pistols that would hand feed empty cases. This probably means absolutely nothing, but if you do it before a potential gun buyer he won't be able to reach for his money fast enough. :evil:

Buy the pistol and try it out with whatever load/bullet combination you want. It will either work, or it won't. If it doesn't you will have to either change cartridges, experiment with magazines, or tinker with it.

But don't blame Browning. He did it right.
 
Its hard to make a general comment regarding the Colt Series 70 as to how well the GD's feed which seems mostly related to the magazine. The Speer GD has a large cavity and I've found that with some magazines it can have feeding problems if there's any nose dive but with my 7 rnd military type mags from Checkmate or Colt there isn't a problem.
 
My Series 70 Gold Cup is usually loaded with 185 grain semi-wadcutters for Bullseye shoots. But it also feeds hardball and various hollow points with aplomb.
 
i use colt factory mags and military contract mags stamped with a contract number of 1M291


it is important for magazines to seat all the way into the magwell- if your mag sticks out the bottom you are just asking for feeding problems


be ware of fake colt mags- they are rampant, but when you know what to look for they can be avoided
 
100% in all of my colts, 70 gold cup, 70 government, 1991a1, and two that i built from scratch using essex lowers (one with wilson small parts and one with fusion parts) and uppers made from post war colt contract slides and barrels- :) welcome to the addiction-
DSC00177.gif

by the way all new 70 series come with widened feed ramps to accept HPs- however, i have never seen an old 70 series with a narrow ramp in the first place- i might recommend that you look into polishing the frame and barrel ramps- some have crazy milling cuts from the factory- dont futz with emery cloth or some other hand method... using both "experience" and a "dremel" tool with a felt polishing wheel and some Flitz- the job is a cake walk and worth the effort.
 
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My experience is similar to all of the above. Modern, well designed HP's that tend to mimic the general ogive of original FMJ ammo will load fine and without effort. I haven't tried the Gold Dots in particular, but modern Speer products should fit that bill exactly. Likewise, even a LSWC bullet loaded to the proper shoulder and OAL dimensions will mimic the FMJ round on the critical parts of its ogive where it contacts the ramp and barrel and will load fine.

In real world experience, I currently have three pre- '80 guns. Two Series '70 guns, a '74 and an '80, and I also have Sistema Colt 1927 model from 1956. All three of these guns will run LSWC, ball, RNL, and HP without a hiccup. None of these guns have been "throated," "Polished," flared/lowered, or had their extractors tuned (at least on my watch - tested, but not tuned as all were fine and run fine). One of these guns is not even broken in and is near-new, the other two have seen military and law enforcement use before I acquired them and have pretty high round counts.

After several years of experimentation, I have also settled on using only Colt OEM magazines, 7 rd., with their "Hybrid" feedlips. In addition to those magazines, I have about three or four "vintage" magazines, meaning genuine WWII or earlier GI or Colt style magazines with the tapered feed lips. Against my initial expectations years ago, these magazines feed those guns just as well. I have had uneven success with Wadcutter feed-lipped magazines, and that includes Wilson type. All magazines I have from other manufacturers are now gone, and these Colt/Colt OEM and GI magazines also run 100% in my other (80 Series Colt and other non-Colt) 1911s. In a sense, 1911 magazine Nirvana - any magazine, any load, any gun. Bliss.

HMMurdock, if your interest in a "Series '70" is to get a real one, you should know the current Colt "reproduction" is as much a true "Series '70" as a fish is a bicycle. The current repro is just a current Series 80 minus the firing pin safety - it has the same barrel, bushing, and sights as an 80, they've just removed the firing pin safety and made a few other cosmetic changes, such as the trigger, MSH, hammer profile and slide roll marks. The real heart and soul of a Series '70, the tapered Mk IV Series '70 barrel and the "Accurizing" collet bushing, are missing. The sights are also wrong and the blue finish is a pathetic facsimile of the high polish Colt Blue of a fresh Series '70. Where the gorgeous checkered walnut medallion grips went on the repro, I haven't a clue, but the repro comes with cheap rosewood plain grips. Overall, it's just not even close to the real thing.

If you are debating between the two, I strongly suggest you find a mint or better original Series '70, and you can do so for less than a current reproduction costs retail in most cases. To inspire you, this is a mint one I bought last winter have as a "keeper" while my other well-worn one continued to do periodic holster and saddle time.

IMGP4764.jpg

military contract mags stamped with a contract number of 1M291

You need to use caution with these, too. They are now faked widely and available "new" online and at guns shows. They have been out of production for about 25 years, so when you see them available new in the fresh brown wrapper for $12 or less, you really need to ask yourself if that makes sense, or if boats from China are delivering them regularly. Real ones will show some wear and not be dirt cheap. Impact Guns sells Colt magazines online cheaply, and Metalfrom usually has a colt OEM equivalent available on sale or in bulk. Cheap no-name magazines are your fastest route to problems.
 
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the blue finish is a pathetic facsimile of the high polish Colt Blue of a fresh Series '70.

And that classic Colt "Royal Blue" is the one thing you can't change or obtain via after-market add-ons for the newer Colts. Oro is right: hold out for an original Series 70 in good condition to appreciate what Colts once were.
 
A bit of a warning... :eek:

What made the Series 70 Colt a Series 70, was the unique design of the barrel at the muzzle end, combined with a bushing that had spring fingers. These were supposed to hold the barrel when the slide was in battery so that the pistol would be more accurate. Colt was trying to improve the product, but avoid the additional skilled hand fitting that was (and still is) required for better, but reliable accuracy. Departing from Browning's original design is usually a mistake, and this proved to be an excellent example.

Sometimes the bushing does improve downrange performance, and sometimes it doesn't. But occasionally a flaw in the bushing or bushing/barrel fit causes one or more of the little bushing fingers to break. If this should happen it is next to impossible to get the pistol apart with out badly damaging something. Knowledgeable users soon learned to replace the barrel bushing with either a hand-fitted match one (best idea) or an older one of the USGI kind (more ideal for a serious weapon, and easily done by any gun owner). It is noteworthy that when the Series 80 came along the spring-fingered bushing was missing, although the barrel remained the same.
 
I currently have a number of orginal pre 70, 70 Series, 80 Series and now have one of the new 70 Series re-issues.

Some of my orginal pre 70 and 70 Series' will feed hollowpoints. Some won't. Certian mags (Wilson 47D) make a difference on the ones that won't, but they do not make them perfect.

All of my 80 Series feed anything I put in them (mags or bullets). They are all newr the mfgr with the "trench feed ramp" in the barrel.

The 70 Series re-issue I have has the new mfgr "trench feed ramp" barrel, it feeds HPs fine and is not finiky about (quality) mags either.

I think if you want a 70 Series and want a guarentee of it feeding Hp's reliably, you should buy a new 70 Series re-issue. Now whatever you inherit is better than nothing.... Espc since it's a Colt.
Will
 
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"Last but not least, don't fall for the "throat the barrel" line of B.S. Why? Because the barrel already comes that way."

Oh.............
You mean I did this work to a customers '70 for nothing?


q24.jpg

q321.jpg

:p

And yes, this one does feed hollowpoints.
And even with 8rd mags!

:)
 
It appears to me that you polished a pre-existing (throated) barrel ramp, rather then cut a new one, as would be done with a barrel that had the original USGI ramp. USGI style barrels are seldom seen today.

Without question, a pistolsmith with your skill and experience can make almost any 1911 pattern pistol feed any cartridge configuration within reason. But doing so requires much more then polishing the frame and barrel ramps. Unfortunately most of those (including most gun owners) that do "ramp and barrel throat jobs" don't come remotely close to doing what you do. My remark was directed toward them, not you.
 
All of mine feed hollowpoints with close to perfection -- including my M1927 Argentine (that's an M1911A1 built on Colt machinery, under Colt supervision in Argentine in the 1930s.)

The keys to getting an M1911 to feed reliably are:

1. Ammunition. Nowadays, manufacturers thoroughly understand how to make hollowpoints that feeds as well as ball.

2. Magazines. Quality magazines will feed anything reasonable. I personally like Chip McCormac 8-round magazines and find them reliable in all my M1911s.

3. The gun itself. A rough ramp needs polishing. A poorly fitted magazine catch or extractor needs to be replaced.
 
Old Fuff,
When you refer to ramp and throat work as 'BS' you are doing a grave disservice to competent 1911 smiths.
And I did a LOT more than just polishing of an existing ramp and throat.
On this particular example, the Colt factory frame feed ramp was on the shallow side for proper function with hp's and 8rd mags.
I first set-up the frame at 31.5 degrees and machined the ramp to .390" depth. I may have preferred a bit deeper but it is necessary to maintain correct distance from the vertical impact surface to the top lip of the ramp. My minimum requirement here is .246". Any shorter and case support of the chamber vs barrel ramp angle is compromised.
Next step was to face back the lower portion of the barrel mouth to provide a gap of .035". This dimension is variable depending on slide to barrel clearance. This facing back resulted in a vertical flat at the bottom of the barrel mouth of about .060".
Then the barrel mouth was totally reconfigured using an 1/8" carbide burr in the Dreaded Dremel. Great care is taken here to maintain adequate case support while creating a shallow enough barrel ramp angle to provide for smooth feeding.
There is more and I could go on into greater detail, but what is the sense in that? You would appear to disdain the use of either 8rd mags or modern defensive ammo and I would not be spending my time wisely debating this issue.
We can certainly agree to disagree, but a blanket slam of proven technique is misleading to our readers.

:)
 
I would go for the current Series 70 Reproduction. The lip on the barrel of the new Colt's seems like a good idea and should improve the feeding of hollow points over the previous generation barrels. I have an older generation Combat Elite that feeds everything, but the new barrels do look like a design I'd expect the other manufactures to follow.

As far as the original Series 70 pistols and pre-Series 80 pistols there are a couple of concerns I would have. The first, is that collectors have often run the price of these models up to and above the cost of current production models. My second concern is that since the 1911 is probably the most modified pistol around (the Harley-Davidson of the pistol world), you will find many pistols that have been "modified" by their previous owners (and not by a gunsmith) to the point where some are barely functional and others are even dangerous. If you are a knowledgeable 1911 guy, or a gunsmith who can fix the problems you encounter, there are probably some good deals out there to be had. However, if you are your average, or not so average, Joe, you would probably be better off getting a current production pistol, that will probably work just fine, but if it doesn't, it still is under a complete factory warranty.

Jim
 
No. The cartridge was designed before the gun. Browning brought out a .45 automatic pistol and a .45 automatic cartridge in 1904. The Army did not accept either one, but specified changes to the cartridge (primarily the 230 grain bullet) and the resulting cartridge was adopted.

With the cartridge adopted, the Army solicited designs for a pistol to fire it. That competition was ultimately won by the M1911, which was a new design developed after the cartridge was standardized.
 
yes, you need to know what to look for on used pistols- there are a lot of bubbas out there that think they needed to polish the ramps with a "grinding wheel" big mistake! in my shop 1 in 10 used 1911s that come in have the telltale marks of an idiot- most of the time they can be kicked into shape but if the frames ramp is too far gone the best you can hope for is to throw on a 22 conversion
 
When my "dark days" Colt Series 70, circa late '70's, was new she would not feed JHP's, a local 'smith did something similar to the RogersPecision photos, although nowhere near as well as the photos, and now she feeds almost anything.

In my case the bottom corner of the barrel throat was overhanging the feed ramp. Be sure to look out for that.
 
We can certainly agree to disagree, but a blanket slam of proven technique is misleading to our readers.

Unfortunately the "proven technique" is seldom seen. Either the new gun owner tries to do the "polishing" himself and sometimes ends up with catastrophic results, or they take the gun to someone else that is equally incompetent. Hence my timely warning. On the other hand you have explained in excellent detail what is really involved. If everyone was able to obtain the work equally well done as you do, I wouldn't have a problem - or post a warning. As it is between us both sides of the story have been presented - as they should be, and I am more then satisfied.

My position on the reliability of many if not most 8-round magazines is well known, as are my views concerning over-reliance on so-called "high performance" ammunition. As you are aware, my opinions are not universally accepted - on this forum or elsewhere. However I am always willing to defend them. :)
 
The Army did not accept either one, but specified changes to the cartridge (primarily the 230 grain bullet) and the resulting cartridge was adopted.

Vern is correct, and perhaps part of the reason is that the Army did not use the .45 Colt cartridge (loaded with a 250 or 255 grain bullet) in they're 1873 Colt Single Action revolvers during the frontier/Indian wars period. Instead they used a special .45 cartridge that was manufactured at the Frankfort Armory. It would fit either a Colt or Smith & Wesson revolver, and it's use continued to around 1910 even though the S&W Schofield had long left the service. The point of all this is, that this cartridge was loaded with a 230-grain bullet. Maybe coincidental, maybe not.
 
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