Commands For The Citizen

[Trunk Monkey]

This is a hypothetical based on something that actually happened to me at work.

It was approximately 2 o'clock in the morning. I was doing a security check on an electrical substation that was on private property belonging to the local utility. I was a utilities contractor, I had every right to be there. It was literally my job.

As I was getting ready to leave a crackhead tried to ride through the parking lot on his bicycle. If he had been going through that would have been one thing but he couldn't have been because the parking lot ended in a 20-foot drop off.

So I got out of my car, lit the guy up with my flashlight and asked him to stop.

He went absolutely crazy. He dropped his bike and started screaming at me. He kept repeating "Do you want to see mine MF? Do you want to see mine?"

Then he pulled up his shirt with his left hand and reached into his waistband with his right. I was absolutely convinced that he was going to come up with some kind of weapon. Maybe not a gun but something.

I didn't draw but I absolutely had my hand on my gun and had deactivated the retention device.

The guy came up with a cheap 100 lumen Walmart flashlight. Apparently he was pissed off because I bright beamed him.

That particular incident I would have no problem justifying my actions to my employer , to the police or in a court of law.

But what if I'm not at work? What if I'm not on private property where I'm acting as the agent of the property owner?

This also actually happened to me one night. I was on my way to work and on my way out the door I decided to take the trash out.

While I was throwing the trash away a couple of scrappers pulled up next to the dumpster and I'm fairly certain they were about to go through it. Which wouldn't have been my issue except that the passenger got out of the car and instead instead of going to dumpster came at me.

Long story short I asked him not to come near me once or twice and got ignored. Then quartered on the guy and yelled at him to back TF off. At that point he stopped then he cussed me out. Then he did all the things that Tweakers do when they're trying to run a scam on you and you call them on it. Then he left.

I can ask you not to come near me. I ask you to keep your hands visible but I have no legal authority to force you to obey me.

So my question is at what point does your refusal to abide by my request become a legitimate threat? I I want to be perfectly clear that I'm not asking "When can I draw?" because I very firmly believe that if I have to ask I'm not justified.

You can stand right next to me and you haven't broken any laws. You can put your hands in your pockets you can put your hand in the waistband of your pants there can even be a gun in your pocket with your hand and you still haven't done ANYTHING THAT GIVES ME A VALID REASON TO DEFEND MYSELF EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE A THREAT TO ME. (Edited for clarity)

IMO this is a hard question to ask clearly because it's really hard to know where that line is at.

 

[Kleanbore]

You can stand right next to me and you haven't broken any laws. You can put your hands in your pockets you can put your hand in the waistband of your pants there can even be a gun in your pocket with your hand and you still haven't broken any laws.

One dos not threaten or use force because someone has broken a law.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

One dos not threaten or use force because someone has broken a law.

One who has to sit through UOF in services and refreshers AT LEAST four times a year knows that.

How about you take a shot at actually answering the question as opposed to showing us how smart you are by questioning the semantics.

ETA there's no point in deleting this because deleting this because you've all already read it.

But I wrote it after being up all night and I was cranky. And there is some legitimacy to what was said because I was imprecise in my language

 

[Kleanbore]

One who has to sit through UOF in services and refreshers AT LEAST four times a year knows that.

Sorry. I thought that was the basis of your logic--"you haven't broken any laws".

I'm certain that you also know that a defender who has not initiated a confrontation, who has no duty to retreat, and who has a basis for a reasonable belief that he is faced with an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm may use proportionally necessary force to defend himself.

It would be more than difficult, I think, to establish reasonable doubt if one were to interpret one standing next to one with hands in pockets as an indication of an imminent threat.

If one continues to approach in a threatening manner and makes a move indicative of reaching for a weapon, things might be different.

What one has said, and has been heard to have said, may well enter into the question of reasonableness. Backing away may be more important.

As you said, no civilian has the right to threaten deadly force to enforce a command.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

It would be more than difficult, I think, to establish reasonable doubt if one were to interpret one standing next to one with hands in pockets as an indication of an imminent threat.

Let me clarify. I'm not talking about standing next to me at normal social interaction distances. I am talking about being right up in my face where I can count the fillings in your teeth.

Now granted, if you do that I'm going to be backing up I'm going to be raising my hands to keep you away from me and I'm very likely going to have my OC in my hand but you still haven't done anything that I can legitimately call a threat.

I encounter people routinely who know the exact limits and they stay just inside them while trying to provoke a response

 

[Armored farmer]

abide by my request become a legitimate threat? I I want to be perfectly clear that I'm not asking "When can I draw?" because I very firmly believe that if I have to ask I'm not justified.

I have no useful knowledge to offer.
I do know that in this new age, cops are getting clobbered by bricks and canes and shot with fireworks by peaceful protesters and they're not being charged with anything.
A decision that you must make in a slit second, will be analyzed for 60days.
Best wishes.

 

[Kleanbore]

Now granted, if you do that I'm going to be backing up I'm going to be raising my hands to keep you away from me and I'm very likely going to have my OC in my hand but you still haven't done anything that I can legitimately call a threat.

I can suggest nothing better.

 

[magyars4]

Would not drawing you CCW and having it pointed to the ground be a realistic response to someone cursing, yelling and moving toward you?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I said at the beginning that this is a really hard topic to get a handle on. I run into these situations more frequently at work because the nature of my job is confrontational. It doesn't matter how politely you tell somebody that they're breaking the company rules or that this is private property and the owners of the private property don't want them there and I'm really sorry but I'm going to have to ask you to leave and when they tell you to FO no matter how politely you say I am sorry sir I am going to have to ask you to comply with my request or I will call the police it's a confrontation.

I run into people at work who I'm watching go through every single one of the classic pre-attack indicators and I know we're about to go but they haven't actually taken a specific action that I can point to and say that was a threat.

ETA. Now to be clear when I'm watching them do that I am creating distance. I am getting my hands up in The Fence. I may or may not be drawing OC spray but even that is a really gray area because I'm not a cop I can't OC you because you failed to follow my commands I can only OC you in self defense. If I OC someone and I'm not justified it's assault. It would be no different than if I just walked up and just randomly sprayed somebody it's assault. So if I just take the OC out of the pouch I still have to justify that. I can't just pull it out because I think I might need it.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Would not drawing you CCW and having it pointed to the ground be a realistic response to someone cursing, yelling and moving toward you?

I'm not a lawyer but I'm going to give you a classic lawyer answer

It depends.

I can't shoot somebody for punching me in the face.

It's time for shift change I'll finish answering this when I get home.

I run into people at work that I can see the outline of the gun in their pocket but I don't have the legal authority to demand that they keep their hands visible.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Ignoring requests (commands) is an indication of intent. Jeopardy (manifest evil intent) is one of the three elements required to justify use of deadly force in response to an attack. The others are means and opportunity. OP already understands these principles.

If you ask a person who understands law-abiding culture to "STOP-DON'T COME ANY CLOSER!", they'll generally do it. Most understand that to do otherwise can be interpreted as manifesting evil intent.

Unfortunately, in the culture of the tweaker/homeless/criminal/rioter (the NON-law-abiding?), ignoring requests or commands from others is a way of establishing status and dominance.

High status and dominance brings protection and relative safety. "You don't mess around with Big Jim Walker...When the bad boys all get together at night you know they all call Big Jim Boss."

The connection between ignoring commands and manifest evil intent is missing or less important in this culture.

Cops, who are agents of the law-abiding, are trained to use commands to control situations (John Correia's verbal judo). This approach is intended to help them determine which contacts are threats and which may not be. But because of these cultural differences, this approach doesn't always work.

It sometimes goes like this: a criminal ignores commands in an attempt to establish dominance, the law-abiding see only manifest evil intent, and the slightest indication of opportunity and means can result in a shooting.

I go through this only as a caution to the law-abiding. If you use commands you had better understand how both cultures interpret them.

 

[Ernie Bass]

I have no useful knowledge to offer.
I do know that in this new age, cops are getting clobbered by bricks and canes and shot with fireworks by peaceful protesters and they're not being charged with anything.
A decision that you must make in a slit second, will be analyzed for 60days.
Best wishes.

It is getting worse each and every day. I saw this article and could not believe it. They want to reduce the charge of assaulting a Police Officer from a felony to a misdemeanor. It must be so tough being a Officer in today's world. Where do they go next?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

It is getting worse each and every day. I saw this article and could not believe it. They want to reduce the charge of assaulting a Police Officer from a felony to a misdemeanor. It must be so tough being a Officer in today's world. Where do they go next?


View attachment 937961

I want to be careful how I say this because I'm not trying to be insulting but I'm more worried about somebody assaulting me than I am about somebody assaulting a cop. And not even that I'm worried about somebody assaulting me as a security guard I'm talking about I am worried about somebody assaulting me in general more than I'm concerned about them assaulting a cop

 

[scaatylobo]

This is a hypothetical based on something that actually happened to me at work.

It was approximately 2 o'clock in the morning. I was doing a security check on an electrical substation that was on private property belonging to the local utility. I was a utilities contractor, I had every right to be there. It was literally my job.

As I was getting ready to leave a crackhead tried to ride through the parking lot on his bicycle. If he had been going through that would have been one thing but he couldn't have been because the parking lot ended in a 20-foot drop off.

So I got out of my car, lit the guy up with my flashlight and asked him to stop.

He went absolutely crazy. He dropped his bike and started screaming at me. He kept repeating "Do you want to see mine MF? Do you want to see mine?"

Then he pulled up his shirt with his left hand and reached into his waistband with his right. I was absolutely convinced that he was going to come up with some kind of weapon. Maybe not a gun but something.

I didn't draw but I absolutely had my hand on my gun and had deactivated the retention device.

The guy came up with a cheap 100 lumen Walmart flashlight. Apparently he was pissed off because I bright beamed him.

That particular incident I would have no problem justifying my actions to my employer , to the police or in a court of law.

But what if I'm not at work? What if I'm not on private property where I'm acting as the agent of the property owner?

This also actually happened to me one night. I was on my way to work and on my way out the door I decided to take the trash out.

While I was throwing the trash away a couple of scrappers pulled up next to the dumpster and I'm fairly certain they were about to go through it. Which wouldn't have been my issue except that the passenger got out of the car and instead instead of going to dumpster came at me.

Long story short I asked him not to come near me once or twice and got ignored. Then quartered on the guy and yelled at him to back TF off. At that point he stopped then he cussed me out. Then he did all the things that Tweakers do when they're trying to run a scam on you and you call them on it. Then he left.

I can ask you not to come near me. I ask you to keep your hands visible but I have no legal authority to force you to obey me.

So my question is at what point does your refusal to abide by my request become a legitimate threat? I I want to be perfectly clear that I'm not asking "When can I draw?" because I very firmly believe that if I have to ask I'm not justified.

You can stand right next to me and you haven't broken any laws. You can put your hands in your pockets you can put your hand in the waistband of your pants there can even be a gun in your pocket with your hand and you still haven't done ANYTHING THAT GIVES ME A VALID REASON TO DEFEND MYSELF EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE A THREAT TO ME. (Edited for clarity)

IMO this is a hard question to ask clearly because it's really hard to know where that line is at.

VERY,VERY interesting question ------------ given what is happening and continues in "modern times".

Making me think really hard on this issue,Due to having once been an LEO and not used to backing down or having my commands disregarded.

Now I am 'just a citizen' ,and as such I would LOVE to not go to court to defend my actions = no matter how well I performed and how "legal" were my actions.

The incidentals count a GREAT DEAL !.

Time of day [ lighting ]

Location [ are you owner or REALLY licensed to be in control of premise = and is that premise a dwelling ].

Distance to the believed threat

ACTUAL THREAT LEVEL ,size of problem [ larger than you ] weapon displayed or actually seen.

Your level of actual TRAINING,and documented of course [ black belt in 5 fingers of death ? ]

Your ability to control a subject [ if no experience,then this answer is NONE ]

It will really hurt your ego to let a criminal or threat leave = like the song says in the movie Frozen --- " let it go ".

I actually feel blessed to know what I know,and know when to hold um,know when to fold um ----- KNOW WHEN TO WALK AWAY AND KNOW WHEN TO RUN.

Sorry for that,I had to !!.

I actually no longer have the ability to run [ documents too,and yes that makes a difference ]

Rant off,hope I helped.

 

[Ernie Bass]

Trunk Monkey, it seems you were just a citizen when your were performing your duty to your employer. It would seem that it is possible, you started the confrontation. No one wants a powerful light which I am sure you had as a security guard in their face and you would know that since you are not a Police Officer you would get it back at you. Not trying to take up for the other guy, but I believe you should have just let it go and at some point called the Police. When he got in your face, seems like it would be classified as a threat. Time to call the Police. (Not that one would show up given the way they are treated now.)
Be grateful you were not shot and killed. Maybe a good lesson. Just do not get involved with anything you do not have to.

 

[Kleanbore]

Ignoring requests (commands) is an indication of intent.

It can so indicate, but not necessarily.

is one of the three elements required to justify use of deadly force in response to an attack. The others are means and opportunity. OP already understands these principles.

They are elements that indicate imminence, but they are not sufficient to justify the use of deadly force in self defense.

If you ask a person who understands law-abiding culture to "STOP-DON'T COME ANY CLOSER!", they'll generally do it.

Consider the following possibilities:

• Impaired hearing
• Not understanding the language
• Misunderstanding--a person proceeding in a perfectly lawful manner assumes that you are addressing a child or someone else, or maybe shouting into a Bluetooth headset..

If it seems clear that an individual is willfully approaching you in an an apparently threatening manner, issuing such a request could either confirm your suspicions or eliminate them.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Alright let me give you what I think is a really good example of what I'm trying to explain.

I talked a lot about the two guys that tried to rob me outside my house as an example of why you should never leave your home unarmed but let me break down for you exactly what happened that night.

When I first saw the two guys they were walking North along the backside of one of the apartment buildings. Where they were at was a place where they would have had gone out of their way to get to. If they were just cutting through the apartment complex they would have cut diagonally across the grounds instead of going the way that they did.

When they got to the end of the building they turned left which would have put them heading west. The only place they could have gone from there was back around the building that they just come around. If they had been trying to cut through the complex they would have gone straight and turned right at the end of my building. Because that was the only way out. The side of the complex that they were going to was fenced in.

As soon as they saw me they split up and tried to surround me. One of them asked me some stupid question about whether or not I was going fishing I think he asked me that to distract me so that they could get closer. As soon as I responded they started to bum-rush me. Long story short they realized that I was armed and they decided not to do anything and they left. When they left they turned right back around and went the way they came instead of going on to get out of the complex which would have taken them away from me also.

So everything that they did was everything that I've been taught is the lead up to a mugging or a robbery. BUT they never once said "This is a robbery." or "Give us your money. " and they never actually displayed a weapon.

They're was never any question in my mind. I was (and still am) absolutely convinced their intent was to rob me.

But if I had drawn my gun, proned them out and held them for the police I would have been the one who went to jail.

 

[LocoGringo]

I said at the beginning that this is a really hard topic to get a handle on. I run into these situations are more frequently at work because the nature of my job is confrontational. It doesn't matter how politely you tell somebody that they're breaking the company rules or that this is private property and the owners of the private property don't want them there and I'm really sorry but I'm going to have to ask you to leave and when they tell you to FO no matter how politely you say I am sorry sir I am going to have to ask you to comply with my request or I will call the police it's a confrontation.

I run into people at work who I'm watching go through every single one of the classic pre-attack indicators and I know we're about to go but they haven't actually taking a specific action that I can point to and say that was a threat.

ETA. Now to be clear when I'm watching them do that I am creating distance. I am getting my hands up in The Fence. I may or may not be drawing OC spray but even that is a really gray area because I'm not a cop I can't OC you because you failed to follow my commands I can only OC you in self defense. If I OC someone and I'm not justified it's assault. It would be no different than if I just walked up and just randomly sprayed somebody it's assault. So if I just take the OC out of the pouch I still have to justify that. I can't just pull it out because I think I might need it.

It would seem that you have quite a bit of experience and training concerning these situations and are very articulate at describing them. Given your experience/training, all of that is taken in the totality of the circumstances and it comes down to how "afraid of death or serious bodily injury" you were in the situation that justifies your level of force for self-defense. I feel like I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, just that maybe you need to hear it again to reinforce being able to use self-defense and justifying it. If you're in a place you have authority or permission to be, no matter the time of day or night, and the other person doesn't or is acting odd/suspicious, then it would seem they are creating circumstances to force a confrontation.

Now the disclaimer...I am not a lawyer and only speaking for what seems reasonable to me and what I have been taught and trained.

 

[Kleanbore]

TM, those were all very suspicious indicators indeed.

Glad things turned out okay.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

TM, those were all very suspicious indicators indeed.

Glad things turned out okay.

Okay but do you get my point?

I was absolutely convinced of their intent but they didn't do anything I could prove.

I didn't have any authority to tell them to leave. Honestly, they were on a public access sidewalk I didn't have any authority to tell them to stop walking towards me.

I had a guy follow me home from work one afternoon. Apparently I had done something that offended him on the road and he wanted to let me know about it. He stopped in the street outside of my house he started ranting and raving at me. I don't remember if he ever actually came onto my property or not but every so often he would stop in the middle of his rant and go over and reach into the cab of his truck.

I suspect he had some type of weapon in there but I had no authority to tell or even ask him to quit reaching into his truck. All I could do was wait until he produced a weapon and then react.

Having said that, in that particular instance when the man told me what I did that ticked him off whatever it was I apologized and said I didn't intend to do that and that I was really sorry and apparently that was all he wanted because he got back in his truck and left.

 

[WestKentucky]

Legally, socially, and mentally the posed question has different answers. It’s one I am struggling with right now as well and the only thing I can figure out is the social part of it. If you are forced to shoot someone to protect yourself then obviously you have done something very wrong. Even if minding your business and they insist upon harming you and when given adequate warning they continue to provoke, socially it will be your fault. It’s a no-win situation. Mentally, how do you handle your decisions? If you shoot a guy then you worry for the rest of your life that you took action that although justifiable may have been too much, but likewise if you take no action then you may be worried that the actions you chose not to take could have prevented some harm to a loved one of someone else in the area. Last but certainly not least is the legal aspect which although laws are not changing quickly, interpretation is and the emotions of a jury begin to play heavily in a decision based on what you did when they were nowhere around and socially they are facing pressure to decide a certain way.

To me it comes down to this...
A person is the master of their own destiny. Are you destined to end up shot in some alley at 2 am when your just minding your business? Not if you decide not to put yourself in that spot at that time. Are you destined to break up a fight and become the interest of law enforcement? Not if you don’t go breaking up fights you aren’t involved in. If you are facing an armed person whether that be law enforcement, overzealous concerned citizen, or thug of some sort, is it your destiny to disregard their commands and get shot, or is it your destiny to comply and take whatever happens and make the best of it. Living is better than dying, but you make decisions that put you into certain scenarios. Sometimes the decision to simply go to the mall is one that may put us in the line of fire as happened in Lexington Ky over the last couple days, but what decisions do we make at the time we learn that the situation has gone awry? It’s a bad spot that we live in. It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t, damned if you act, damned if you react, and damned if you take no action.

 

[Craig_AR]

So I got out of my car, lit the guy up with my flashlight and asked him to stop.

I am curious whether you lit up his face, or aimed lower so only his body was in the primary beam. Even an old fashioned 2 C-cell flashlight directly in the eyes can be a major bother. A long range (6 D-cell) or extra bright high-lumen tactical light blinding my eyes would launch my anger-adrenalin. too. Plus, it is not necessary to see the face to identify what is in the hands or being worn on eeh body which may be a weapon.

For years as a Scout leader, one of my recurring training activities of 11 year olds on first campout was to never shine their lights into faces when identifying anyone in the dark, since it messed with night vision.

I have not seen a discussion on flashlight strategy and tactics in this forum, but I bet it would be an educational one. Use of standard lights, tactical lights, strobe option, etc., all seem worth thinking about.

Would not drawing you CCW and having it pointed to the ground be a realistic response to someone cursing, yelling and moving toward you?

IANAL, but given a lot of reading here and with Branca's LoSD, I suggest that such an action, depending on state law, could be illegal brandishing. Further, if the other person asserts that the gun became pointed at them, the charge could upgrade to assault.

 

[labnoti]

Would not drawing you CCW and having it pointed to the ground be a realistic response to someone cursing, yelling and moving toward you?

It varies by state. In Arizona, for example, the law explicitly allows for defensive display. It's not necessarily advised. Since we're talking hypothetical situations here, a hypothetical attacker could say, "he drew a weapon, so I shot him before he could shoot me." Defensive display is part of the force continuum. Whether its justified or advisable is going to depend on a lot of particulars and even then the outcome in the face of uncertainty is going to be unknown.

I started a similar thread last year: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/commands-for-the-civilian-self-defender.857222/ and so obviously I agree this is a worthwhile topic to discuss. There are a lot of ignorant people -- in the proper sense, not meant as an insult -- who don't know and haven't thought it out -- what words to exclaim in a dangerous situation. It can be crucial to get our words as well as our actions right in such a volatile circumstance.

Although this article pertains to law enforcement rather than civilians, check out the research on the topic in the article on page 99: https://iletsbeiforumjournal.com/images/Issues/FreeIssues/ILEEF 2008-8.2.pdf

Then check out this follow-up article on command sequence beginning on page 141: https://iletsbeiforumjournal.com/images/Issues/FreeIssues/ILEEF 2008-8.3.pdf

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I am curious whether you lit up his face, or aimed lower so only his body was in the primary beam. Even an old fashioned 2 C-cell flashlight directly in the eyes can be a major bother. A long range (6 D-cell) or extra bright high-lumen tactical light blinding my eyes would launch my anger-adrenalin. too. Plus, it is not necessary to see the face to identify what is in the hands or being worn on eeh body which may be a weapon.

The light was a thousand Lumen Fenix and I put it right in his face. I wanted him blind. Anybody I encounter at 2 in the morning in a restricted area isn't supposed to be there. This isn't Boy Scout camp I've had people try to kill me at work. I want the odds stacked as heavily in my favor as I can make them

 

[lemaymiami]

Calling out a challenge to someone possibly intent on a confrontation is not in itself a confrontation... What happens next is entirely up to the two parties involved. I've been on both sides of that issue - both as a serving cop (22 years worth) and an ordinary citizen (the past 25 years after retiring from police work). On the street I always tried to start with an ordinary greeting (good morning - good evening... then down to specifics..). At any point from first contact forward, how it goes will be initiated by whoever I was dealing with - and the tactics used depended entirely on what was presented to me from that point forward. An ordinary citizen will not get aggressive when just encountered - even late at night in a bad neighborhood unless they've got bad intentions or react in an overly defensive manner... Whatever occurs from that initial point onwards - distance is always your friend - and if the person you're dealing with flees - so much the better since they've just declared what side of the fence they're on. If they promptly advance to get into a position where an attack might be possible - backing up to maintain your distance should be your first maneuver - all without drawing or reaching for whatever weapon you have with you.. The hardest part of this "street theater" is for you to maintain your cool and do everything possible to project an image of confidence and control (even if you're moving to a defensive position..and not confident of the outcome....). The idea is that you're doing your best not to escalate a possible problem into a real one while doing everything you can in a non-verbal fashion to discourage a potential assailant. Only when things get to the point where weapons might (and I emphasize "might") be necessary would I take my initial verbal challenge up to the level of verbal command (where you raise your voice and give every indication that things are going to get bad if the other party continues whatever they're doing...). When things get to that level I've turned my weapons side (whether I'm armed or not...) away from the problem while at the same time moving my strong hand behind that side so that anyone looking at me can't tell whether I have my hand on a weapon or have drawn it... Once again the idea is to deter not go to condition red and engage with a weapon...

Now for a real life, late night encounter (true story that could have gone very bad...). Nearly 3am, deserted street, and a young man wearing a full dark, loose fitting hoodie approaches me on foot with his head down so I couldn't see his face - with both hands in his pockets... As a cop I learned never ever allow someone to approach me with his hands concealed, period. All of this was during the "cocaine wars" down here in south Florida... My first verbal challenge was to greet him as he approached and ask him how he was doing... no response at all - he continues to walk toward me - now about 30 to 40 feet away... At that point I challenged him saying "Stop right there and show me your hands".. again no response at all as he continued coming right at me... Now I'm backing up and working to get my patrol car between me and what looks like trouble (still not resorting to any weapon at all) but you can bet that my adrenaline level is rising fast. Finally at about 20 feet away I draw down on him and finally get his attention.... His very surprised response was to stop short and raise his hands while showing lots of shock on his face.... Once the situation was under control I found out he was completely deaf and never heard or saw me since he wasn't looking my way... We spent the following ten or fifteen minutes writing messages back and forth on the back of my spiral notebook as I did my best to apologize and explain why I reacted the way I did... I'd like to think he understood -but "street life" and "street theater" are so random and unpredictable so who knows?

By the way all of the above is about one on one interactions - things change dramatically if more than one is facing you (or the place or situation strongly indicates more than one...). Facing even the possibility of uneven odds if the situation turns sour will have me being the one that backs off (even when I was a cop - but as a cop once I had sufficient back-up, things would change)... By yourself facing more than one individual - any contact is risky period... even if you can clearly see something criminal going down....

Put simply - the good guys don't always win, period. One of the guys I worked with late one night responded to an alarm at a big store that frequently had alarms that turned out to be false.. When he got there he found two young men on scene and proceeded to talk with them at close quarters without waiting for his backup (big mistake...).. While one distracted him, the other moved just enough so that he never saw the sucker punch - and down he went, unconscious... They then took his sidearm and were ready to shoot when an elderly couple walking their dog came up and scared them off... We never caught them and never recovered the stolen weapon either - but we did find the entry point for what was a commercial burglary in progress that he'd come up on... That officer was bigger, fitter, and more competent hand to hand than I will ever be... Like me - he's long into retirement, but that night bad tactics nearly killed him (During my 22 years there were three funerals every year for cops killed on the job - counting Dade and Broward counties as a single entity...). A few years into my career I quit going to them and learned everything I could about "street survival".. The basic rules don't change, whether in uniform or as an ordinary civilian... It's your tactics in each incident that will determine the outcome...