competition 9mm bullet choice

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wtf808

wtf808

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I'm mainly an IDPA/USPSA shooter, but just getting into reloading for pistol..

How much does bullet type matter for my type of use? Why does it matter? Is one truly more accurate than the rest, less fouling, more consistent? These are some of the popular ones (theres others too) I've seen other shooters use, any advice is appreciated...

9mm .355/.356 pills.

Precision 147 FP
RMR 147 HMW
Precision Delta 147 FMJ
Berrys 147 RN
Blue Bullets 147 RN
X-Treme 147 RN

Some seem harder to get than others, so I wonder how can I stick to one if I gotta keep changing to whatever I can get my hands on. I'll have to work up recipes for all if I cant source them well lol.
 
I've gotten the most consistency and accuracy out of Hornaday 115gn HAP
.355
115gr JHP
I use 4.8 grains of tight group and CCI small pistol primers.

I run these loads in a CZ 75 SP01
 
I'm mainly an IDPA/USPSA shooter, but just getting into reloading for pistol..

How much does bullet type matter for my type of use? Why does it matter? Is one truly more accurate than the rest, less fouling, more consistent?
Click to expand...

I have a lot of wins, division champions, 1st MA at Nationals, etc using plated bullets. Knowing they were not the most accurate load for the firearms I was using but loads that met PF that felt the best without impairing my vision with smoke.

I have more wins with a plated RN 147gn seated to 1.160” OAL pushed by 3.1 gn of VV N310


My 2nd and 3rd choice would be the same as above except using 3.2 gn of N320 or Titegroup.

To be fair, I am sure I lost some matches and/or places in finish due to them vs a more accurately placed shot but money is finite and practice makes perfect.
 
jmorris said:
I have a lot of wins, division champions, 1st MA at Nationals, etc using plated bullets. Knowing they were not the most accurate load for the firearms I was using but loads that met PF that felt the best without impairing my vision with smoke.

I have more wins with a plated RN 147gn seated to 1.160” OAL pushed by 3.1 gn of VV N310


My 2nd and 3rd choice would be the same as above except using 3.2 gn of N320 or Titegroup.

To be fair, I am sure I lost some matches and/or places in finish due to them vs a more accurately placed shot but money is finite and practice makes perfect.
Click to expand...

Perfect practice makes perfect. That was pounded into my head by my Senior Drill Instructor. If you practice it wrong....
 
Fair point but there is a lot more to winning those games than shooting tiny groups. I routinely beat people that could have beat me if we were shooting bullseye
 
wtf808 said:
How much does bullet type matter for my type of use? Why does it matter? Is one truly more accurate than the rest, less fouling, more consistent?
Click to expand...
I won my IDPA class at a state championship once... hope that counts? Could be I just sucked less then everyone else...

My theory on competition regarding bullets is they’ll all produce a win if the shooter consistently excels at each stage. You have to avoid misses, procedurals, FTEs, and be fairly accurate and fast. Sounds easy, eh?. You don’t have to win every stage, but it’s like the Tour de France, the winner doesn’t usually win every stage. When that timer goes off, what bullet produces a 2” groups at 20 yards is nowhere in my thought process.

Work up loads for your favorite vendors and bullet weight. Some like light bullets, I like 147s. I have loads for RMR, Blue Bullets, and Bayou. I’m going to Area 8 tomorrow and I’ll be shooting Blues. Why? Because I recently moved and the maxwell coffee can of 500 Blues is all I can find at the moment, and my Sons depleted the Bayous at the Walls of Steel shoot :). Good luck!
 
lordpaxman said:
I won my IDPA class at a state championship once... hope that counts? Could be I just sucked less then everyone else...

My theory on competition regarding bullets is they’ll all produce a win if the shooter consistently excels at each stage. You have to avoid misses, procedurals, FTEs, and be fairly accurate and fast. Sounds easy, eh?. You don’t have to win every stage, but it’s like the Tour de France, the winner doesn’t usually win every stage. When that timer goes off, what bullet produces a 2” groups at 20 yards is nowhere in my thought process.

Work up loads for your favorite vendors and bullet weight. Some like light bullets, I like 147s. I have loads for RMR, Blue Bullets, and Bayou. I’m going to Area 8 tomorrow and I’ll be shooting Blues. Why? Because I recently moved and the maxwell coffee can of 500 Blues is all I can find at the moment, and my Sons depleted the Bayous at the Walls of Steel shoot :). Good luck!
Click to expand...

agree!.. don't get me wrong, to me equipment is less of a factor than practice and skill are, but just curious in the world of competition pistol ammo reloading, how much better is one pill over the next. for instance, some folks swear by RMR or Precision Delta.. why, what sets them apart from the less than's. Is it truly bullet performance, wild inconsistent product or results, or is it something else.. perhaps characteristics like barrel fouling, or cost, or is it really just personal preference?

Maybe I'm overthinking but I guess in these crazy times, whatever pill you can get your hands on is the best :p
 
The only pistols I can't run plated or coated in are my "open" ones. Then JHP's or Montana Gold CMJ's are my pick. I suppose if price is no consequence, I would run them in everything. JHP's happen to almost always be the most accurate handgun bullet choice too.
 
Welcome to THR.

wtf808 said:
9mm ... IDPA/USPSA shooter ,,, How much does bullet type matter for my type of use?
Click to expand...
For your type of shooting (action pistol match), accuracy you can get even from coated/plated bullets may be sufficient.

Starting out, you may benefit more from shooting lower cost bullets to be able to practice more (trigger time) to improve your match shooting accuracy and stage times. (See bottom of my post for match shooting tips)

wtf808 said:
Is one truly more accurate than the rest
Click to expand...
Many reloaders will support the claim that typically, jacketed bullets are more accurate than plated bullets. And some will claim that match grade jacketed bullets (Like Hornady HAP - Hornady Action Pistol, Montana Gold, Zero, RMR, etc.) are more accurate than other bulk commercial jacketed bullets like Winchester, etc.

wtf808 said:
just getting into reloading for pistol.

How much does bullet type matter for my type of use? ... more consistent? Why does it matter?
Click to expand...
When I started shooting USPSA matches in the 90s, I was fortunate to have a reloading/match shooting mentor who shot bullseye/PPC matches who was a stickler and OCD about consistency.

While USPSA "action pistol" type match does not require utmost level of accuracy that bullseye matches require, it is good to have "match grade" ammunition that is as consistent as you can make it. Many match shooters, particularly bullseye match shooters will agree that bullet/projectile is the most significant contributing factor for accuracy of match grade ammunition due to these reasons:


Bullet weight consistency - Depending on brand/make, some lubed lead/coated lead/copper plated bullet weights can vary by 1.0+ to several grains. Most jacketed bullets can vary by around 1.0 grain and match grade bullets can vary less than 1.0 grain. After testing different bullet types available at the time, I ended up using Montana Gold jacketed bullets for match loads and Berry's plated bullets for practice.

In recent years, RMR started manufacturing their own line of jacketed bullets and I found weight variance to be less than even match grade bullets (Montana Gold, Hornady HAP, Zero, etc.) with around .05 grain variance and this article review showed RMR bullet weight variance to be .03 grain - https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/rmr-9mm-124-jhp-mpr-review/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20190708_BlogDigest_336&utm_campaign=/digest/rmr-9mm-124-jhp-mpr-review/&fbclid=IwAR0px_E2pxIBTpEGsu3J1xLvk86kfwopr2zmXyU2jlAL_2Ij3-hskEk4PtI

"The reason you want a very minimal spread on bullet-to-bullet weight is because if you keep all variables as close as possible when reloading you limit the margin of error that occurs on every shot ... When you are trying to obtain superior accuracy, you must keep the parameters constant or it will negatively influence accuracy.

Again, working on a micro scale, if each bullet has a 2 to 5-grain difference then the balance of the bullet and the actual flight trajectory will be influenced differently per shot. It might not be a large difference but when you are trying for pure accuracy you can see the difference on the target. For comparison, it would be like throwing a golf ball and a baseball with the same amount of force. They will both go a good distance but will not land at the same spot with the same consistency as throwing multiple of one of the balls.

On my scale, I weighed the 20 bullets. Four bullets weighed 123.9 grains, three bullets weighed 124.0, nine bullets weighed 124.1, and 3 bullets weighed 124.2. That is a spread of .3 of a grain overall. Better than acceptable as far as I am concerned."
​

Bullet nose profile/ogive and bullet seating depth consistency - Like bullet weight, bullet length can vary also. But since most bullet seating stems do not push on the bullet tip, rather further down from the tip, it is the consistency of bullet nose profile (Called "ogive") that will determine the OAL consistency that reloaders, especially match shooters are focused on.

OAL variance is important because it determines the consistency of bullet seating depth that affects neck tension, powder burn efficiency and chamber pressure build/maximum averages that produce consistency of muzzle velocities which SD numbers are derived from.

This article reviewed ELEY's latest centerfire match ammunition which uses RMR bullets and found OAL consistency to be .001", which is as good as you can get and produced 25 yard one inch groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-match-ammunition.854750/page-3#post-11282439


Bullet diameter variation - Not all 9mm barrels are sized the same and can vary from .355" to .356" typical to .357"+ for some oversized factory barrels. Likewise, not all 9mm bullets are sized the same and can vary from .354", .355", .3555" to .356".

While most jacketed bullets are sized .355", I found some bullets are sized larger at .3555"-.356" and can produce tighter bullet-to-barrel fit to seal gas which results in more consistent chamber pressure build - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453


Finished OAL vs Chambered OAL - Many will obsess over the consistency of "finished OAL" but what really matters for accuracy is the "chambered OAL" after the bullet nose bumps the feed ramp and experiences any bullet setback. To me, it's the resulting bullet seating depth after bullet setback that will ultimately determine the chamber pressure consistency.

So what affects "chambered OAL"? Neck tension consistency.

And what determines neck tension? Resizing of brass, bullet diameter, how deep bullet base is seated down to and case wall thickness.

Ideally, I do not want any bullet setback of match grade ammunition. So if you are experiencing significant bullet setback of more than .005", you can use thicker case wall brass, larger sized bullets and/or seat the bullet deeper in the case neck.

In this myth busting thread, various headstamp cases were measured for case wall thickness consistency at 12/3/6/9 O'Clock positions from .100" below case mouth (where taper crimp is applied) down to .200" below case mouth (where bullet base experiences greater neck tension from thicker case wall) and bullet setback measured using .354"/.355"/.3555"/.356" sized bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

One of things bullseye match shooters recommend to reduce flyers is using sorted, same headstamp brass and inconsistent neck tension and varying amount of bullet setback from using mixed range brass could be the reason why.


BTW, here's a step-by-step 9mm reloading process for consistency you can reference to reduce/eliminate reloading variables and shooting tips for accuracy testing / match shooting - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509

U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit, Pistol Marksmanship Training Guide on trigger control - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-4#post-11320782

Detailed discussion on trigger control and grip with demonstration by Rob Leatham - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245649

If wanting to pursue "Zen" of shooting (Being able to produce holes on target anywhere at will - You will be introduced to this concept soon enough by seasoned match shooters), consider adding point shooting training to your sighted/front sight flash match shooting - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/flinching-drills.864546/page-2#post-11416785
 
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wtf808 said:
how much better is one pill over the next ... some folks swear by RMR or Precision Delta.. why, what sets them apart from the less than's. Is it truly bullet performance, wild inconsistent product or results ...

Maybe I'm overthinking but I guess in these crazy times, whatever pill you can get your hands on is the best :p
Click to expand...
Very limited sample testing but when RMR started manufacturing their own in-house jacketed bullets, I wanted to see how they compared to well established match grade bullets like Hornady HAP and Zero.

Here's 25 yard 10 shot testing with my 9mm JR carbine with adjustable MagPul stock using same powder and charge.

index.php


And with fixed stock

index.php


And since, RMR jacketed bullets have been my bullet of choice for accuracy testing to produce these 25 yard 10 shot groups with different powders - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/favorite-9mm-38spl-powder.827483/#post-10663092

As others posted, I think focusing more on shooting techniques and range practice may benefit you more.

But if you want my opinion on consistent match grade bullet? RMR hands down.
 
LiveLife said:
This article reviewed ELEY's latest centerfire match ammunition which uses RMR bullets and found OAL consistency to be .001", which is as good as you can get and produced 25 yard one inch groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-match-ammunition.854750/page-3#post-11282439
Click to expand...

Not sure that article is completely germane to this discussion.
1) That article looked at 38 Super, not 9mm.
2) It's factory loaded ammo and the OP will be loading their own.
3) The OP is looking at 147 grain bullets and the article ammo used 124 grain bullets.
4) The OAL was measured on only 5 rounds. That's not a big sample size.
5) That ammo in that gun produced an average of 1.0" 5-shot groups, but as the author noted that statistic can be misleading. The aggregate 25-shot group measured 2.15", which is a better reflection of the accuracy of that ammo in that gun.
 
wtf808 said:
in the world of competition pistol ammo reloading ... is it something else
Click to expand...
There's been many thread discussions on reloading consistent match ammunition.

If you end up using progressive press, consider separately pre-resizing brass for your match rounds as this not only allows you to inspect the primer pockets and clean as necessary, but will reduce shell plate tilt/deflection to reduce OAL variance which affect bullet seating depth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...progressive-press.833604/page-2#post-10779806


While you are shooting USPSA "action pistol" match, information from this bullseye match essential equipment article may help - http://www.bullseyepistol.com/equipmnt.htm

"Reloading Your Centerfire Ammunition ... Reloading can help reduce those costs, or at least give you more ammo for the same amount of money ...

Reloading can also help you realize your gun's potential ... Reloaders can vary powder charges and change bullet seating depths and crimp diameters, all of which will affect a load's performance. With enough experimentation you can find the load that extracts maximum accuracy from your pistol."​

So, what did I learn from the bullseye link article and other articles about reducing flyers? Use new brass or sorted same headstamp brass. :rolleyes:

And here's reloading for accurate bullseye match loads with comments on bullets and powders - https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/loads-for-the-bullseye-shooter/99418

"Bullets & Powders

The bullet is the most important component in accurate ammunition ... Jacketed bullets generally have the edge in accuracy over lead bullets ... sometimes the Nosler shoots a little better and sometimes the Zero shoots a little better. And sometimes they produce the exact same group size.

Hornady and Sierra also make excellent and accurate ... jacketed bullets. I have had occasion where one of these bullets outshoots the Nosler and Zero, but it's random and they don't always shoot better. I'd say they should be considered "as accurate" as the Nosler and Zero bullets.

... Accurate bullets need to be paired with the right gunpowder. In keeping with the goal of low recoil, relatively fast-burning powders best achieve this goal. Fast-burning powders require less weight to reach a given velocity than slow-burning powders. Powder weight matters because a powder that requires less weight to push a given bullet to a given velocity produces less recoil than a powder that requires more weight. This is because the weight of the powder is part of the mass that is ejected out of the barrel along with the bullet. Through the principle of conservation of mass, the powder's weight is part of the formula to calculate recoil force, and less powder weight contributes less to the mass exiting the barrel."
​
The second article touched on something I experienced while developing my match loads. (I am assuming you will be loading for USPSA minor power factor).

USPSA scoring requires at least two shots per target and best two holes get scored (unless that ruling changed with the exception of no-shoot hits). This requires not only developing an accurate match load to produce accurate first shot but match load that allows you to produce fast and accurate subsequent shots (Double tap - Essentially shooting at two targets superimposed on top of each other with two separate sight pictures).

When I conducted range testing with different powders (Bullseye, Clays, WST, Titegroup, W231, Universal, WSF, HS-6) at the recommendations from other match shooters, I noticed different amount of felt-recoil that varied from sharp snap to slower push and it took different amount of time for me to get back on target for the second shot.

So while a particular powder produced smaller shot groups, another powder allowed me to produce faster two shots. And since scoring for USPSA favors speed over utmost accuracy, reducing stage times (while practicing to hit all "A" zones) will benefit improving your stage score more.

For me, I found the "tap-tap, tap-tap" cadence of W231/HP-38 (same exact powder) a good compromise of accuracy and recoil impulse to produce faster stage times. Other shooters prefered to use Titegroup simply because it had lower cost per round and difference in accuracy/felt recoil was not big enough for them to affect stage score.

Ultimately, you will need to range test different bullets and powders in your match pistol to see which loads shoot good enough for you.
 
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My 9mm 1911 has a strong accuracy preference for light JHP bullets.
115 XTP/HAP, 115 Win JHP/Silvertip.
 
wtf808 said:
thank you for that sweet sweet brain dump.
Click to expand...
And regardless of bullet you end up using, working to reduce reloading variables will help you produce more accurate match grade ammunition.

So what do I consider "match grade"?

For general purpose/range blasting ammunition, I use mixed range brass without inspecting primer pockets, press priming, cheapest available bullets (Even seconds and pulled), cheapest powder/charge with little regard for metering consistency.

For match grade ammunition, I would:
  • Since resized brass length can vary as they are repeatedly reloaded, could even sort resized brass by length to make bullet above case mouth more consistent for more consistent bullet seating depth (Longer brass will allow case mouth to headspace with the chamber for better seal and less gas leakage but shorter brass could even headspace off extractor for worse seal with chamber and leak more gas, particularly because 9mm is a tapered case)
  • Use least amount of taper crimp (or no taper crimp and just return flared case mouth flat back on the bullet) to not reduce bullet diameter and allow faster seal with chamber as case neck expands. I usually add .022" to the diameter of bullet for taper crimp amount. (So for .355" sized bullet, .377" taper crimp. For .3555"-.356" sized bullet, .378" taper crimp)
  • Use bullets with consistent enough nose profile/ogive to minimize OAL variation towards goal of .001" OAL variance
  • Sort brass by headstamp and use the headstamps that do not produce bullet setback with the bullet I am using - If sorting brass by headstamp is not an option, then consider using shorter OAL or slightly larger sized bullet (.3555"-.356") that do not produce bullet setback
  • Conduct powder work up using longest working OAL that works with the barrel/magazine/pistol to identify the most accurate powder charge then incrementally decrease the OAL by .005" to see if group size decreases. If group size decreases, use shorter OAL. (So if longest working OAL is 1.150" and 1.140" OAL decreases group size, use shorter 1.140" OAL).
  • Test finished rounds in match barrel to ensure they freely chamber (drop in with a "plonk") and fall out freely so you do not experience stoppages during a match stage
  • Store match ammunition in 100 round ammo cases instead of storing in bulk to better protect loaded rounds
  • On really hot/cold match days consider keeping match ammunition inside an ice chest to keep powder temperature stable
 
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wtf808 said:
These are some of the popular ones (theres others too) I've seen other shooters use, any advice is appreciated...
.
Precision 147 FP
RMR 147 HMW
Precision Delta 147 FMJ
Berrys 147 RN
Blue Bullets 147 RN
X-Treme 147 RN
Click to expand...

If you're running a comp I'd use Blue or X-Treme. If not, RMR or PD. Just curious, how many rounds/month are you shooting now?
 
on avg, 2k a month.. sometimes more sometimes less.. my fave match ammo producer is major behind on orders so i wont be seeing anything from them for a while.. thus, opened me back up to reloading pistol..
 
This comprehensive post full of U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit’s articles and links discusses further on selecting reloading components for match grade loads, reloading techniques specific to match shooting and range procedures/equipment for accuracy testing - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...oading-concepts-and-discussions.778221/page-2

76 page compilation of US AMU series on beginning handloading (from US AMU FB page) - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6_VFA4Z3x3AVVctLURYdEVYbU0/view

While much of the content are geared towards precision long-range rifle loading (1000 yards), quite a lot of information can be transferred to pistol loading.
 
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