Complete newb on reloading and looking for help

[rmcelwee]

*** EDIT ***
The problem below was caused by a dull Lee Case Trimmer Cutter with Ball Grip. The problem has been solved but I welcome further discussion.
*** EDIT ***



I am new to this and I'm just now getting all my equipment together. I've laughed at you reloaders for years (crawling around on your hands and knees in the mud picking up brass) but I've been looking for a new hobby and I think this one will help me kill some time and have some fun. I think I want to primarily reload 223 for my inexpensive PSA AR-15 and see if I can figure out how to maximize the accuracy. I plan on reloading 30 rounds at one powder charge, then changing the charge and seeing what the difference is on the target. I might also try to find out what the best length for my rounds is (perfect fit for the rifle).

My stuff so far:
Tumbler with walnut media
Lee Anniversary Kit (single stage press, beam scale, powder thrower)
223 dies
H335 powder and CCI #400 primers
Lee zip trimmer and handheld debur tools
RCBS swag die
all copper 55 grain bullets
500 pieces of once fired brass, half consisting of Lake City

My questions so far:
1) I don't understand why there are three dies in my 223 set. I don't have my swagger yet (will come in later this week) but while I was playing around I used my bullet seating die to put a bullet in an empty case. I pulled it out and pressed it on my table and the bullet pressed into the case. Do I thread my die in more to make it crimp the bullet more or does the third mystery (to me) crimping die do something.

2) I am a little confused on trimming with the zip trimmer. I had some cases that were 1.770" that required tons of trimming (pulled the cord a million times). That left a huge burr on the case. I started cutting for three pulls, then deburring for three pulls and repeating and that seemed to help but I am not sure that is the right way to do it.

3) I managed to take some 1.760" cases way down to 1.730" with the zip trim even though the case gauge is not supposed to take it down that much. I think the deburring tool was actually responsible for removing the huge amount of brass but I felt like I had to do it to get the outside burr off. Not sure what my question is <G>.

I'm sure I'll have more questions. I don't post much on THR but will probably start becoming a more active member since I am getting into the reloading thing.

 

[rcmodel]

1. Did you resize the case in the FL sizing die first?

2 & 3. Probably operator error.

I might also try to find out what the best length for my rounds is (perfect fit for the rifle).

The perfect fit for your AR-15 will prove to be somewhat less then 2.250" with most bullet weights.

If you want them to fit in the magazine.
And Feed, Fire, & Function Freely.

You cannot play around with seating to the lands in a semi-auto like you can in a bolt-action.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

You might have a full length sizer die, a seater/crimp die, and a neck sizer die. Just guessing. You will want to full length size your brass.

If you set up the sizer by the instructions, you should have plenty of neck tension. Double check how you set it up. Crimp will not make up for poor neck tension.

 

[rmcelwee]

1) Yes, I used a sizing die first. Bullet was very lose after seating. I made a few rounds without powder in them just to have something to play with and I think only one was like that. I probably changed my setup afterwards but I cannot remember.

2 &3) No doubt about it being operator error. I guess you are saying I will get better at this.

4) I'll leave the length alone. Thanks!

 

[rmcelwee]

You might have a full length sizer die, a seater/crimp die, and a neck sizer die. Just guessing. You will want to full length size your brass.

If you set up the sizer by the instructions, you should have plenty of neck tension. Double check how you set it up. Crimp will not make up for poor neck tension.

It is the Lee Pacesetter die set.

 

[Classic55belair]

If you don't have a reloading manual, get one. I have the Lee Precision 2nd edition. Love it. Lots of good info. Read it. There is about 130pgs if I remember right about loading. The rest is load data.

Next. When in doubt. Read, ask, research. Also. Keep records of what you are doing. Powder lot#'s, primer lot #'s. Everything. If you are interested I will email you my reloading data sheet and some other useful documents.

 

[Walkalong]

It is the Lee Pacesetter die set.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/434975/lee-pacesetter-3-die-set-223-remington

Then it is an FCD crimp die. I imagine the seater has a crimp (Different from the FCD) built in as well, but it may not.

 

[chris in va]

I also have the three die Pacesetter.

Use the third die for crimping if you desire. It's been proven to make velocities a bit more consistent. I don't know why you are able to push the seated bullet in easily, unless the weird "all copper" bullet you describe is undersized. Are you really using FMJ bullets? There's a difference.

How are you measuring your cases? Be sure your calipers are zero'ed properly, even analog ones can be off until reset. I don't know how on earth you are able to trim down to 1.73, just not possible.

I use the Lee trimmer you chuck in a drill. There's just no way for it to get past 1.75.

 

[BigBore45]

OP you need to read a load manual. Me and THR members will be more than willing to help you and get you on the right track but nothing will get you in better shape that becoming familiar with what question you are asking. I can almost guarantee that the case was not resized correctly or at all. but until you understand what each dies does and why it does it, we cannot help you. Welcome to the reloading hobby and get ready for more range time at the same cost with better results! and no harm or ill temperament intended on my post but blunt and to the point is my nature good or bad.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You resized and removed the spent primer before you tried to trim, correct?

I used a Zip Trim for a bunch of yours and it works fine. I found the best cutter for that tool is the Ball Cutter, it's comfortable when trimming and saves your hand when trimming a lot of brass.
https://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-cutter-with-ball-grip-90275.html

Have you bought a tool to remove the military crimp which is surely on those Lake City cases? You will need one and they come in MANY styles. It all depends upon how much you want to spend.

A good choice is the RCBS bench mounter swagger but it's costly. (Dillion also sells a very good one)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/319662/rcbs-bench-mounted-primer-pocket-swager?cm_vc=ProductFinding

RCBS also sells a press mounted swagger for a lot less money and it works very well.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/235832/rcbs-primer-pocket-swager-combo-2?cm_vc=ProductFinding

There are all kinds of cutters and tools for that job.
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=96&newcategorydimensionid=11892

You can even used your Chamfer/Deburring tool you already have.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/78...ng-tool-17-to-45-caliber?cm_vc=ProductFinding

NOTE, if the bullet is loose in the neck of brass you already resized you did not resize the brass correctly. The bullet should be tight even without a crimp which is not necessary for most rifle ammo.

 

[rmcelwee]

I also have the three die Pacesetter.

Use the third die for crimping if you desire. It's been proven to make velocities a bit more consistent. I don't know why you are able to push the seated bullet in easily, unless the weird "all copper" bullet you describe is undersized. Are you really using FMJ bullets? There's a difference.

How are you measuring your cases? Be sure your calipers are zero'ed properly, even analog ones can be off until reset. I don't know how on earth you are able to trim down to 1.73, just not possible.

I use the Lee trimmer you chuck in a drill. There's just no way for it to get past 1.75.

It was my first attempt at seating a bullet. The 2nd worked fine. I don't know what happened.

I measure the cases with a nice set of calipers. My measurements are correct BUT I think I am cutting down the case by trying to remove the burr. My case gauge is used so maybe the blades are dull and creating an abnormal burr???

This is the bullet I am using:
http://www.slickguns.com/product/copperhead-223-remington-55gr-bt-solid-copper-silghtly-blemished-bullets-500-count-free-ship

 

[rmcelwee]

You resized and removed the spent primer before you tried to trim, correct?

I used a Zip Trim for a bunch of yours and it works fine. I found the best cutter for that tool is the Ball Cutter

Have you bought a tool to remove the military crimp which is surely on those Lake City cases? You will need one and they come in MANY styles. It all depends upon how much you want to spend.

RCBS also sells a press mounted swagger for a lot less money and it works very well.

NOTE, if the bullet is loose in the neck of brass you already resized you did not resize the brass correctly. The bullet should be tight even without a crimp which is not necessary for most rifle ammo.

Yes, I resized and removed the spent primer. I purchased a used ball cutter off Ebay. My RCBS press swagger is being delivered on Friday.

Again, this was my first attempt. I am sure I made my first of many mistakes. My real question was what is the third die for and why do I have such a huge burr on my cases. I'm going to open up the trimmer that came with my new kit and see if using something with new blades helps. I really appreciate the help you guys are giving me!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Yes, I resized and removed the spent primer. I purchased a used ball cutter off Ebay. My RCBS press swagger is being delivered on Friday.

Again, this was my first attempt. I am sure I made my first of many mistakes. My real question was what is the third die for and why do I have such a huge burr on my cases. I'm going to open up the trimmer that came with my new kit and see if using something with new blades helps. I really appreciate the help you guys are giving me!

Since your cutter is used check the cutting edges and be sure there isn't a chip or bad spot. That could cause chatter when cutting. I'm not sure i would but that tool used considering they can be damaged and only cost under $7 new.

 

[rmcelwee]

The used cutter came with a bunch of other stuff ($37 shipped on Ebay). The 223 rod is scarred (guessing he used pliers or something to pull it out of the handle or something) so it and the cutter may get replaced:

 

[jeffforkliftguy]

To prevent future problems, i.highly recommend you get a "small base" resizing die. You WILL eventually run into a problem with round not firing and sticking in your chamber. Also, if accuracy is what you are after, crimping a rifle round with a neck and shoulder is not a good idea. If you are resizing your cases properly, simple neck tension on the bullet is more then.sufficient. by crimping the bullet, you are deforming the jacket and there fore affecting the accuracy of the round. Also, ive found that imr3031 & imr4064 are two great powders for this round. Avoid slower powders as they will hurt accuracy in a.223 and will also cause your cases to be extra filthy after firing.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

To prevent future problems, i.highly recommend you get a "small base" resizing die. You WILL eventually run into a problem with round not firing and sticking in your chamber. Also, if accuracy is what you are after, crimping a rifle round with a neck and shoulder is not a good idea. If you are resizing your cases properly, simple neck tension on the bullet is more then.sufficient. by crimping the bullet, you are deforming the jacket and there fore affecting the accuracy of the round. Also, ive found that imr3031 & imr4064 are two great powders for this round. Avoid slower powders as they will hurt accuracy in a.223 and will also cause your cases to be extra filthy after firing.

Welcome to the forum.

You said to avoid slow powders but I disagree. You are recommending IMR4064 which is on the slower side. I use Varget which is every bit as slow or slower than IMR4064 with excellent accuracy.

Needing small base dies is the exception to the rule, not the normal.

 

[jeffforkliftguy]

Just posting my experience....i used to use fl dies and then out of no where had a "click". ???? I then couldnt pull the charging handle back to eject the round. I had to beat the forward assist to shove the.round in far enough to be.able to field strip the rifle. Manually cock the trigger, put the rifle back together, and fire the round to get it to eject. This then started happening with my ar10. After scratching my head and doing a little research i found that a "full length" die doesnt actually take the brass back to factory spec. So picking up brass found at the range now can be.an issue because you dont know what it was.fired from. The sb die takes it back to a spec that will allow it to feed into any chamber without issue. Havent had a single problem.since. and when i.switched to 3031 i noticed better groups at longer ranges. Youre right 4064 is bordering on mid to slow range. But its my default when 3031 is not available. Again, just my personal experience...who knows maybe varget would have my groups even tigbter than 3031 but in three years ive never seen it on the shelf so ive never used it.

 

[RainDodger]

There are a lot of details in the posts on this thread... but a lot of them won't make sense to you until you buy a hand loading book and spend a few evenings looking at it.

Doesn't matter what kind... Speer, Nosler, Sierra, Hornady... just get a book.

 

[jeffforkliftguy]

Yea, agree with raindodger. A reloading manual should be your goto for most info. And its not a bad idea to have multiple manuals as they will provide info that other do not. I have three manuals and an online source for data too and still find myself looking to buy more manuals!

 

[JonB]

The Lee reloading manual has a lot of good reading on how to do it, all the steps, etc - good place to start.

I always cross check the load data in it though as they just republish other loads. A lot of the powder/bullet companies have their info online, so I just save it to my computer or print it.

 

[rmcelwee]

Yea, agree with raindodger. A reloading manual should be your goto for most info. And its not a bad idea to have multiple manuals as they will provide info that other do not. I have three manuals and an online source for data too and still find myself looking to buy more manuals!

Not trying to argue, but it is necessary for me to have three manuals, and an online source, and look for other manuals just to load 223? I need to know the brass length, overall length, and powder charge. Is there something I am missing? I rebuilt an automobile engine just on data readily available from the internet. This can't possibly be more difficult than that. Or is it???

 

[TBJK]

I am a newb to reloading as well. One thing I've read was to prefer to get books that aren't from a specific bullet manufactures. My RCBS kit came with one but the bullets specs are for their brand. So I bought a Lee book. Read them & they are a weath of info. I'm sure I will have questions eventually but I usually refer to the book. Another thing to consider is if you have other rifles, is I'm planning on using a powder that will work with both rounds. Ie I have a 308 & 5.56/.223 AR. I may eventually try different ones if I'm not satisfied with my accuracy.

 

[JonB]

Not trying to argue, but it is necessary for me to have three manuals, and an online source, and look for other manuals just to load 223? I need to know the brass length, overall length, and powder charge. Is there something I am missing? I rebuilt an automobile engine just on data readily available from the internet. This can't possibly be more difficult than that. Or is it???

No you don't need 3 manuals. But get one that has good details on the process itself - the rest is load data that you can find and cross reference online (which is what I do).

I have the Lee Reloading book, and a Lyman 48th edition. I don't feel the need for more than that.

 

[rmcelwee]

Well, just found the problem with my short brass. YES, the ball cutter I have is dull (which leaves a horrible burr) and my dull deburring tools are so crappy that I end up taking a huge amount of brass getting the burr off. I swapped to the new stuff that came with my kit (it was still sealed up in the package) and everything is fine now. Cuts 1000x better! Hmmm, wonder if I can replace the blades in my ball cutter/handle?

 

[jeffforkliftguy]

Im a mechanic as well and understand your questioning. I started with 223. A basic setup and started cranking them out. I then had questions, problems, concerns, and everyone kept telling me to refer to this manual, that manual. I didnt get it until i started thumbing through different manuals and realized that having multiple manuals to refer to is a huge help. Sure your case length and specs are the same across the board but data is different and not every manual lists the same thing. Suppose you run througb your (current powder) and then you have to buy more and its not available. Your store has (insert powder) but its not listed in that manual you have...if you had multiple manuals youd more than likey be on your way home to start relading and quite possiblely find out that, hey, this powder has me grouping much tighter than that last powder. Your post mentioned accuracy, not all powders provide the same lvl of accuracy, not all charge weigbts provide the same accuracy. Near max load in (insert powder) may be the most accurate in that configuration but that other powder may be most accurate in near minimum charge weights. There is ALOT more to consider than you might think. The more you reload, the more you question, the more youll find out.