Concealed carry on a cattle drive?

[mountaindrew]

I am going to one of those Dude ranch/cattle drive vacations in Montana this summer with my father. I know my permit is good in Montana and Wyoming, but I am not sure of the ranch's rules about guns. I am uncomfortable asking thier policy as I intend to carry anyway, But I would like to know if any of you have any input. I need input as far as equipment, concealment techniques that will work on a horse, even gun selection, as I intend to buy a new gun before the trip.
To complicate things, my father is cynical and slightly anti when is comes to carry. Since we are flying together and I have to check my gun with the baggage, he will know I am carrying, and I expect to hear about it.

I I knew it were allowed, I would just buy a .45 SAA clone and open carry in a nice western rig.

 

[Dksimon]

I would suggest asking them. I would bet that they are ok with it and if they arent then I think you sould leave it at home. It's not polite to carry on someones property if they say you cannot.

I cant really think of a way for you to CC if you are going to have your shirt tucked in. maybe look into a belly band.

 

[Cosmoline]

Ask them. If they're not willing to trust you with a firearm, go to Thunder Ranch for your vacation instead!

 

[hobgob]

google comp-tac holsters...they make a holster that allows one to carry IWB while still allowing you to tuck your shirt in... thats my advice for carry options...or shoulder rig, as it would be more accessable while riding a horse.....ofcourse... make sure the ranch is ok with you carrying first.

 

[86thecat]

I carry a 10mm Glock w/ Corbon 180gn BCSP (empty chamber full mag around other peoples horses) in a Galco Jackass shoulder holster under a loose cotton Wrangler snap shirt (they shrink). Or in a pommel bag. I personally won't use a holster without thumb break or other mechanical retention on a horse (or skis or bike). YMMV.

 

[Oro]

I've done a fair amount of carry while horse back riding.

1) IWB, High-ride etc. are just not practical - very uncomfortable in the saddle.

2) Western rig or even military web with a tie-down holster - just fine.

3) Shoulder rig - best of all. Prefer the WWII tanker type.

4) Very nice is a 30-30 in a scabbard.

5) I haven't tried this, but El Paso Saddlery makes pommel bags with holsters installed inside. Very cool. Or just get a cheap pommel bag of your own.

Bottom line, concealing isn't really practical on horseback, and especially in summer. And it does get hot in Montana in the summer some times - scorching at times. I recommend this approach, which I've used on ranches when staying there and has worked great (this is a real conversation, btw) -

Me - "Hey, I want to do some plinking while I'm out in the great wide open - down in the lowlands it's so annoying to find a nice place to shoot, where do you recommend?"

They - "Oh, heck, just over any ridge away from the livestock sounds fine around here. All the stuff over the mountain there is BLM land, so have at it. Hey, watcha got?"

Me - "Well, a Government model I need to function check after some tweaking, and a S&W .357 I wanna sight in with some hunting/woods loads."

They - "Sounds fun. Hey, you see any game, don't take a shot w/o a license, you know, you'll get in trouble in no time. But call me, I've got mine already. I keep a .270 Winchester Mag ready and a dirt bike gassed in case anyone says 'bear.'"

Ok, so from there, you can suss out their attitude and then set it up to just stick it in a saddle bag or carry in a shoulder or belt rig. Like 86theCat said, I won't use anything for carry on a horse without a absolutely secure retention system, nor load a SA auto into the chamber. Here's my two go-to rigs for horsey-carry. The first one is a modern repro of a WWII tanker rig made to fit the snubbie .44 mag; The second last saw duty in heavy bombers over Europe in 1944/45 (yep, a real veteran).

Enjoy your riding; sounds great!

1) El Paso Saddlery repro

2) The real deal

 

[Oro]

Oh, ps, gun selection - Well that's wide open. Good excuse to get a 30-30 and a scabbard if that works out. As to a handgun, well, up to you. A good western rig works well for riding with either strong side or crossdraw and a SA cowboy gun or others - the western rig we have also takes a 4" or 5" S&W K-frame just as well as the .357 Blackhawk it was built for. But really, I prefer the open shoulder carry for a few reasons - it gets the gun center mass on you, so it rides with less effort and less distraction to your riding if you are trotting, cantering or galloping. it also has the gun tucked in tight to your body in a protected position, so the gun isn't hanging out there banging into stuff and getting nicked up when you are walking in brush, tacking up, untacking, feeding, hiking, doing trail or fence work, etc. Very practical, if not as romantic as a tooled belt rig. I know others will argue, but for serious defense I do not consider a SA gun a practical solution - if you need more than six shots you are in a bind. For plinking, fun, or playing cowboy, that's another matter.

My two favorite guns for serious defensive carry on horseback in bear and cougar/big cat infested woods are either the 3" .44mag above, or a 4" S&W 686 with stout 180gr LSWC loads from Double Tap. My other 1/2 carries a 2.5" K frame .357 when we ride - and I will, too, sometimes, but the L frame 686 is just much, much better with the big loads - better even than an N-frame to my hand. When not in "dangerous game" areas, I will carry .38 Special, .45acp, or .45 Long Colt as the mood strikes (don't get me wrong, .45LC can be quite a serious cartridge in a Ruger or modern S&W N-frame, but my one .45LC gun is a few years from being an antique and not up to modern stiff loads, so it's not a "hard hitter").

Shoulder rigs for revolvers or autos are easy to get. El Paso can make you a Tanker repro for any gun you want for a little north of $100 for the plain type. Pacific Canvas and Leather sells afforable ($40) repros for 1911s and 4" K frames (Pilot's Victory model), albeit Chinese made, sadly.

One thing I do not do on a horse is carry a 1911 cocked/locked, especially with the barrel positioned over my left femoral artery and my horse's left lung underneath that. For that reason, I ride with a magnum Double action revolver in "dangerous" country, not a 1911 or SA gun. I will ride with one of those if another party member is armed - which I try to make sure of, if I can.

This is an interesting thread and I'm glad to share my riding/gun experiences if they can be helpful. It's something that takes a bit more thought than lots of other kinds of carry.

 

[hso]

If they're open to "plinking" out back, then a new gun is just fine. If they tell you that your permit is good on their land, but they'd rather you not plink, carry what you usually do and work out the rig that makes it comfortable too carry. You don't want to be depending upon a gun you haven't shot enough to be comfortable with.

Also, assure them you're not some jumpy city boy that will draw down on every lizard and snake you see.

Off body could be an option.

 

[Dismantler]

I would certainly ask if it is okay to carry. They may not like the idea of people giving other guests a true cowboy flavor. This is a fun activity for many, not a reenactment. There is liable to be a mixed crowd there, and it may include anti-gunners or hoplophobes. This is not a time to make a statement for 2A. Even with deep concealment, the gun will have to come out when you change clothes, etc. And why push your father's buttons? Have a good time with him without upsetting him.

P.S. Yes, I feel naked without my gun, too.

 

[Treo]

QUOTE: ". I am uncomfortable asking thier policy as I intend to carry anyway, "

But I would like to know if any of you have any input.

My input is that you ask the property owner if you can carry on his land. And abide by his decision. I would bet that there will be at least one gun amongst the employees, for emergencies (such as a horse W/ a broken leg).

I would guess that the owners liability insurance doesn't allow armed guests

 

[freakshow10mm]

I would ask, it's courtesy.

I would look very strangely at a rancher who didn't allow guns on the ranch. An unarmed rancher isn't a rancher.

 

[TallPine]

FWIW, you don't even need a permit to carry concealed in Montana outside city limits (or doing traditional outdoor activities such as hiking, hunting, ranching, horseback riding - so one could probably make the point in that case it is also legal in town).

Anyway, I dunno what any individual outfitter would think. My neighbor who passed away last year guided for many years and had several bad incidents with dudes' AD's with single action revolvers loaded six-up.

I carry on horseback what I carry the rest of the time: 4" .357 Security Six in a Bianchi OWB leather holster at 3:00. I do find that I need to keep my belt fairly tight to avoid bouncing. I ride several times a week, so this isn't just an academic opinion.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider a shoulder holster because if you fall on that side you are almost guaranteed some nasty broken ribs

Also, I'd forget the idea of a rifle in a saddle scabbard for a trail ride. With that you have the issues of getting it comfortably mounted on your host's saddle, plus the possibility of the horse rolling on it. If you need a gun, you might really need one if you get dumped - not disappearing over the hill with your horse.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if your guide carries a rifle in a scabbard.

 

[Henry Bowman]

I would guess that the owners liability insurance doesn't allow armed guests

This is a common, but unsubstantiated, myth. I would bet that the policy is silent on the subject.

 

[TallPine]

Where exactly are you going?

I might know them or know somebody that knows them, and could ask discreetly.

There is a big ranch "next door" to us that makes more money on trail rides and hunting that it does on cattle.

 

[Brisk]

as much as i hate lying i would call the ranch and play like you are thinking about coming up there next summer. then ask a few normal questions like do they provide snacks and water on the rides, or if you can bring your kids along. then ask about bringing a sidearm. dont jump right in and ask that question first or they may be taken aback. use the "opening" questions to let her know your not a gun weilding weiner but someone who knows what they are doing. heck give me the number and i'll do it for ya if you want...

 

[glockman19]

I would open carry as kamerer suggests and not worry about it. Montana Ranchers should have no issues with you Open Carrying. They probably are themselves.

IMHO Best advice:

1) IWB, High-ride etc. are just not practical - very uncomfortable in the saddle.
2) Western rig or even military web with a tie-down holster - just fine.
3) Shoulder rig - best of all. Prefer the WWII tanker type.
4) Very nice is a 30-30 in a scabbard.

#4 Or any lever action rifle you have.

 

[mountaindrew]

Hey, Thanks for all the responses and advice. I will definatly look into the tanker rig for outdoors carry in the future, even if I dont wear it on this ride

As far as respecting the landowner, I was expecting to treat this as I do everthing else at home or on vacation. If there isn't a stated "NO GUNS" policy with big signs, I assume they dont care, and I adopt a "don't ask don't tell" policy. Concealed means concealed. I would definately ask for approval if I wanted to open carry.

I dont ever leave the home without a gun (or at least my KT P3at ) I could just slip that in my pocket for the ride and be done with it (It lives there anytime my pants are on) I just feel that something a little more serious is called for in the great outdoors. I was mainly thinking along the lines of a small steel .357 revolver. I will of course give it a good range work out before carrying it.

Keep the suggestions coming! Thanks

 

[Treo]

QUOTE: ". I am uncomfortable asking thier policy as I intend to carry anyway,"

QUOTE: " As far as respecting the landowner, I was expecting to treat this as I do everthing else at home or on vacation. If there isn't a stated "NO GUNS" policy with big signs, I assume they dont care, and I adopt a "don't ask don't tell" policy."

Do realize that these are two totaly divergent statements? In the first you essentially state that you wouldn't respect the land owners wishes if you knew them and in the second you tone it down to "assumed consent".

If you really are looking for advice, as opposed to a rubber stamp for your plan to carry regardless of the landowners wishes, I would suggest you start by taking the advice of the majority here and ask the owner

 

[sixgunner455]

Pocket carry works well, too. Comfortable, convenient, concealed.

I can tell you from one painful experience that Thunderware is a very bad idea on a horse, if that horse is doing anything but walking.

If it's not in the pocket, the holster has GOT to have a positive keeper/retaining strap of some sort.

 

[blackcash88]

There are lots of good IWB holsters (stay far, far away from anything Crossbreed) designs out there. Or carry off body in some way since you'll have gear with you. How about a Camelback or something since you'll need to stay hydrated? Not the quickest draw, but you'll still have it with out. If it were me, I'd call them (don't give name) and just ask. If they aren't OK with it, I'd carry anyway.

 

[86thecat]

A cattle drive could be on a privately owned ranch, leased propery, leased goverment land etc, so be sure of the laws (like crossing state or nat'l park land) before you carry.

 

[CWL]

If you think they'll recognize your voice, just have a friend call them up and ask directly if they allow carry (open or concealed during the drive.)

Best to know up front.

Another option is to ship the gun to yourself at the destination via express courier so your dad won't get upset.

 

[SWC Bonfire]

Just FYI, it is likely that dust will get into everything, including your firearm.

A pommel holster may be more useful if you can find one to fit your handgun, and they can be ordered with flaps to cover your firearm completely and keep it from bouncing out somewhere between yesterday and right now.

 

[btg3]

From speaking with a cattle drive provider: Guests are not permitted to bring any firearm on their cattle drives or any others that they know of. Further, there has never been a need to have a firearm on any of their drives.

So you've got the hassle of flak from your dad, airline transport, and deep concealment on horseback... for how many days? I don't know the stats on BG attacks for cattledrives, but the cost-benefit weighs in favor of leaving it at home. As for cougars and rattlers, if any, they should be the concern of the host, rather than the guests.

 

[Oro]

Further, there has never been a need to have a firearm on any of their drives.

And there never was a need for concealed carry at VA Tech until last April...

Personally, I wouldn't even consider a shoulder holster because if you fall on that side you are almost guaranteed some nasty broken ribs

By that logic, a broken hip is the result of carrying a gun on a belt, then... Seriously, either belt or shoulder, both will work. TallPines has a good point about a scabbard - it takes a little rigging to get it safe and secure, and you need to remove the rifle each time you tie up or the horse may roll on it - some will, some won't. Many ranchers who are serious about their horses will train them not to roll under tack, but the horses instinct is to do it, and the horse may not be that highly trained.