Condition Three Carry

[bluecollar]

Condition three carry seems to come up quite a bit on this forum which has led me to ponder on a couple of points. I have never heard of or witnessed any L.E. agency (with the military being the exception) training their people, who have as a matter of course related to their duties carry a sidearm, to carry a pistol in condition three. At least not in the U.S. To my mind such training would seem irresponsible on its face. Am I wrong here? If I am it would seem to negate everything I have been taught for the last thirty years I have carried a pistol.

 

[S&W620]

I can't see one advantage to doing so for the average person who ccw's or LEO. The disadvantages are obvious.

I have never been in the military and have no experience or knowledge as to the rationale, but I can't see any real value in it from the outside looking in for them either.

IMO, if you're going to carry a pistol, you carry it with loaded. Assuming you'll be able to run the slide when you need it is one assumption I'm not willing to make.

Ymmv.

 

[MikeJackmin]

I've read all sorts of explanations for this. The one I find most credible is that early in their history, Israel found itself equipped with a wide variety of used pistols and the need to quickly train a whole lot of people to use them in a reasonable way. Condition 3 provides a single method which will work with almost any pistol, and will allow for unambiguously safe carry, a reasonably fast response, and which relies only on gross motor skills.

If the story is true, it does seem like sensible response to that specific problem.

Some folks still prefer it despite the obvious disadvantages (it requires two hands, and it's loud). With practice you can be pretty quick with it, but of course, with the same practice, you'd always be quicker with a more modern approach.

 

[DeepSouth]

The only way I'd even concider it, is if I had one of those auto loading holsters like the Russians use. At least it could be loaded with one hand, other than that.... Locked, cocked, and ready to rock, as the saying goes.

 

[mljdeckard]

And make no mistake, the army doesn't TRAIN you to do it, they just TELL you to do it. You're supposed to magically know how to run it that way by yourself. (You may have heard me mention in here before how terrible army pistol training is.)

When I was in Iraq and forced to carry condition three, in my downtime I did my own planning and training. I modified a couple of magazines by removing the follower and spring to use for training. I would practice drawing and loading. I carried the pistol cleared with the safety off. I would practice drawing, loading, racking, and firing. I figured if I ever actually had to do it, it would be in an emergency.

Reasoning? Not too difficult to figure out. The army would rather make everyone less safe to plan around that one knucklehead who can't be trusted to treat it as if it were loaded and keep his booger hook off of the bang switch, than take the time to train everyone correctly and let us actually use a sidearm in a way it might actually help us in an emergency.

 

[HorseSoldier]

+1. The .mil powers that be like Condition 3 because it is cheaper than being more selective about recruiting/retention and then properly training service members to safely carry side arms. No other logic or justification.

 

[JWH321]

If I was carrying my S&W Shield in condition 3, I would have to have the bad guy help me rack the slide so that I could shoot him. Almost impossible to do it on my own -- and yes its had almost a thousand rounds through it, and yes I love it a lot, and its accurate, but its still nearly impossible to rack it sometimes. Condition 3 would get me into condition dead.

 

[MedWheeler]

This is sometimes known as the "Israeli Method", as that nation's Massad used to carry their Beretta 70/71 series .22LR pistols that way.

They've since stopped carrying those guns, which were used primarily for anti-skyjacking operations and for covert assassinations of terrorism suspects.

I don't know if they still currently carry their handguns (9mm) that way.

Outside the military, there are no LE agencies I could possibly imagine that would have their agents carry in such a condition.

 

[1911 guy]

The method originated with the Israeli military, as mentioned. Why it came to be, however, is a very simple explanation. They required a single method to train everyone from front line troops to motor pool personnel in the shortest amount of time possible.

Much like the "slingshot" method of reloading an autopistol, it may not be the best way with your particular handgun, but it will work with every handgun. They didn't adopt it because it had any advantage other than ease of training. Same reason the U.S. has adopted it. It's easier than teaching muzzle awareness and trigger discipline.

LE agencies do not use this method because they have much smaller numbers of people to process through training, they do not have to produce a standing army at a moments notice and they also have control over who is selected for training by means of the hiring process.

 

[herrwalther]

I have been in the military awhile, and have never carried condition 3. Whenever I have been issued a weapon it is either loaded and chambered, or empty. Even "inside the wire" we carried with a chambered round. Our base was remote and any attack would go without support for some time so we were encouraged to be ready to fight.

Sometimes NG units deployed to stateside emergencies are required to carry condition 3. An old unit of mine was deployed to the Katrina devastated area with that order.

 

[Mainsail]

I have been in the military awhile, and have never carried condition 3.

Same here. Not sure where that got started but in my 20 years I'd never seen it. When transiting bases in practically every country on the planet, my M9 was loaded, round in the chamber, de-cocked, and safety off. Not by choice but by policy.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Reasoning? Not too difficult to figure out. The army would rather make everyone less safe to plan around that one knucklehead who can't be trusted to treat it as if it were loaded and keep his booger hook off of the bang switch, than take the time to train everyone correctly and let us actually use a sidearm in a way it might actually help us in an emergency.

Bingo.

Same applies for the Navy, in my experience.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Same here. Not sure where that got started but in my 20 years I'd never seen it. When transiting bases in practically every country on the planet, my M9 was loaded, round in the chamber, de-cocked, and safety off. Not by choice but by policy.

No round in the chamber was SOP everywhere I went in Afghanistan that had enough bodies inside the wire to have a flagpole. What percentage of troops ignored that guidance is an open question, but I know coming in from missions I always cleared my M9 as per required SOP and then dropped the slide on a loaded mag, very much not per SOPs.

 

[Blue Brick]

I carry in condition 3.

 

[1911Tuner]

The military doctrine of keeping the chamber empty until there's a reason to charge it applies to everything from sidearms to self propelled howitzers.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Topside watches on submarines carry in accordance with the SOP for whatever threat condition they're in. It can be anything from round in the chamber with safety on to an unloaded gun with magazines on the belt.

 

[herrwalther]

Same here. Not sure where that got started but in my 20 years I'd never seen it. When transiting bases in practically every country on the planet, my M9 was loaded, round in the chamber, de-cocked, and safety off. Not by choice but by policy.

That is where it changes for me. Whenever I did a base hop in Afghanistan, the pilots were rather OCD about having a cleared weapon. To the point they would stand over and watch you clear it if the bird had enough crew members. I imagine somewhere someone had a loaded weapon, hit a rough patch or an aerial maneuver and sent a round through the side of the fuselage.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I could see Condition Three, sort of, for home defense. If you did everything else right, you should have some warning and time to get ready. For self defense carried on your person, not at all. And if you keep it loaded all the time, you never have to wonder which condition you left it in.

 

[GLOOB]

Reasoning? Not too difficult to figure out. The army would rather make everyone less safe to plan around that one knucklehead who can't be trusted to treat it as if it were loaded and keep his booger hook off of the bang switch, than take the time to train everyone correctly and let us actually use a sidearm in a way it might actually help us in an emergency.

I highly doubt this is the case. I think the reasoning is to prevent senseless injuries and death due to accidents. If the chances of an accidental injury are higher than the reduction in danger due to a fraction of a second longer deployment time and 1 less round, than it's the right choice.

The guys that are on watch are carrying M16's, anyway. You might get the chance to save the day with a quick draw from the hip, but that chance is probably a bit lower than the chance of an accidental injury happening on base due to an AD. Your real safety is your fellow soldiers watching your back. Heck, soldiers sleep and eat and piss and perform ordinary jobs that don't involve killing people, and somehow they manage to do all that without a loaded gun in their hands.

Last time I checked, the army accepts plenty of knuckleheads. And no one likes to tell griving parents that their son died in a "training accident." That's just as tragic as dying in combat.

If it's actually warranted, a soldier will cock and lock, anyway, regardless of orders. Whenever the pistol becomes the primary weapon in an area of imminent danger, or whatnot, and you're watching your own back.

 

[tuj]

The method originated with the Israeli military, as mentioned.

I believe German military and many NATO european forces carry this way also or are at least initially trained to.

 

[TestPilot]

Chamber empty carry has its places, but those are pretty exceptional situations, and kind of situations where most people should not place themselves in the first place.

If you want to appendix carry a Tokarev, you might want to do it. But, should you really be appendix carrying a Tokarev?

Come to think of it, now I see why I rarely saw a video or photo of a Jericho 941 actually in the hands of an Israeli.

 

[TestPilot]

I believe German military and many NATO european forces carry this way also or are at least initially trained to.

Leave the military out of this. The reason why soldiers do it has nothing to do with effectiveness.

It is solely because a general might get fired when a solider shoot one's own foot, but a general won't be fired for soldier getting killed while racking the slide.

Like it or not, fact of the matter is that soliders are treated as expendable with rights of a second class citizen. At least that was my soldier experience.

 

[dbp]

If I was carrying my S&W Shield in condition 3, I would have to have the bad guy help me rack the slide so that I could shoot him. Almost impossible to do it on my own -- and yes its had almost a thousand rounds through it, and yes I love it a lot, and its accurate, but its still nearly impossible to rack it sometimes. Condition 3 would get me into condition dead.

You need to take your Shield to a gunsmith if you have difficulty racking the slide. There is something not right either with the gun or your method of racking a slide.

 

[Nicky Santoro]

At various times in 1969 and '70 I carried a 1911 as a personal weapon in a flap holster, mag in, hammer down, chamber empty. I never gave it a thought. I was never specifically trained to carry it that way or any other way. I don't know what others did as the subject never came up.

 

[cowtownup]

Everybody has to decide for themselves where they are comfortable at. Just because a person does not want to carry cocked and locked doesn't mean they aren't ready to carry a firearm. Find where you are comfortable at, train as much as possible, carry your firearm and be safe.. Merry Christmas to all....