Consistent COAL

[Herk30]

I'm still getting my feet wet, and maybe I'm just being anal, but how do maintain a consistent coal? I was reloading some 223 that called for a coal of 2.220" I adjusted my seating die so that the first load was right on, the second was slightly off at 2.210" and from then on they were all over between 2.201" - 2.227". What the heck am I doing wrong??? A friend of mine that got me started reloaded some 223 for me and when I checked his coal they were dead nutz on, and I checked a random 40 or 50 of the 100 he loaded.

My seating die is tight in the press. The only thing I can think of is when I actually pull the lever maybe I don't use consistent pressure? If it matters I am using a Lee single stage press with Lee dies.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[ranger335v]

I can't imagine what's changing your OAL by a little over .1". That's a LOT of difference!

Are the bullets tight in the cases, or maybe loose? If so, maybe it's the sizer.

Do the bullets show any ring of scuff marks as if they are being seated in a too tight seating chamber? If so, your seater may be a little too tight and is pulling them back out a bit.

Let us know when you find the answer, this is a puzzler.

 

[WNTFW]

.104 variance is way too much.
You will get a slight variance because the Bullet is pressed from a point down from the tip & measured at the tip & tips vary on some bullets. Meplat is the correct term.

.104 Something is definitely wrong. I'm not sure what.

 

[WNTFW]

The Lee bullet seater has a piston/sleeve type of configuration.
It may be binding erratically. Try taking it apart & cleaning it.

 

[Herk30]

There is a slight ring mark about 1/3 of the way down from the point of the bullet. I'm using Remington brass and Barnes Varmint Grenade bullets if that makes any difference. Here's my actual coal's of the 13 I loaded before quitting for now.

2.217
2.215
2.218
2.219
2.220
2.220
2.218
2.227
2.213
2.220
2.201
2.220
2.210

 

[Larryect]

Did I miss something? My math shows a .026 range difference. Not .1

I have had trouble with differences in my reloading as well and am interested in answera as to what is accceptable.

 

[Herk30]

I edited the measurements in the original post. I was going from memory and was a little off. Either way, it seems like this is too much of a variance to me, no?

 

[SEMNshooter]

What bullets are you using? I have found very distict variations in bullet shape, ie melplat (spelling?). I once bought Winchester bulk FMJBT and was less that impressed. You could see the difference not only in bullet tip but also where the cannalure was on the bullet. I had all kinds of issues. (I, like you, are a stickler for consistancy for OAL.) I'm not saying that there aren't other issues, just throwing another variable out there.

 

[ants]

To seat the bullet, the seating stem presses down on the ogive of the bullet, not the nose. At least that's the way it is designed. Some bullets have such a pointy nose that the tip of the nose bottoms out in the seater stem, and you get great variance in the seating depth.

Take the seater stem out of the seating die and stick some bullet noses into it. Look very carefully to see if you can discover some source of interference. Some reloaders (those who know what they are doing, and have skill and patience) carefully drill the center of the recess a little deeper to clear the bullet nose.

Or you can buy different bullets.

 

[Herk30]

I tried 10 or so bullets out of the box and they all seat around the ogive into the seater stem. I found that's where my ring is coming from about 1/3 of the way down from the meplat.

My press is mounted to a 3/4" 7 ply plywood bench top, which does tweak with enough pressure but it does take a bit. Does a press need to be mounted rock solid or does the end of the stroke mean the end of the stroke reguardless?

I'm just trying to think of anything that might make a difference.

 

[JDGray]

What bullets are you using? I have found very distict variations in bullet shape, ie melplat (spelling?). I once bought Winchester bulk FMJBT and was less that impressed. You could see the difference not only in bullet tip but also where the cannalure was on the bullet. I had all kinds of issues. (I, like you, are a stickler for consistancy for OAL.) I'm not saying that there aren't other issues, just throwing another variable out there.

I'm less then impressed with Win 55gr fmjbt! I set my first depth at 1.220, and the case was centered in the crimp groove, next one totally covered the groove My oal was between 1.210, and 1.225, not perfect but they shot good.

 

[Der Verge]

I have a Lee challenger press. Between it, and the small variance that most bullets have between then, I was experiencing the same thing. My Lee just has too much flex in the linkage (though only a year old). I bought a better press, and have no more issues with OAL.

 

[ants]

That's odd, Der Verge, I have the same press and get consistent OAL on all rifle cartridges. I always lubricate the linkage and ram, and never abuse it.

Winchester bulk 55 grain fmj is made for Winchester in several different plants, some of it on outsourced contracts. The 1000 I bought earlier this year were nearly match quality, but the batch I bought before that were so random dimensionally - exactly as JDGray and SEMNshooter said - that I measured them with a comparator and divided them into four groups so I could load consistently.

 

[ants]

Herk30 - Clean your rifle barrel carefully, set the rifle on sandbags or a good rest, and shoot 10 of those Barnes VG at a 300 yard target. Those OAL numbers are not that bad, and .223 Rem is fairly flexible about seating depth. Maybe they are deadly accurate and you don't have a problem to fix.

 

[depoloni]

With softpoints, poly tips, and even hollow points (at least in varmint bullets, never really checked the 44's and don't use any others) the important thing, and the reason that nearly all seating dies engage on the meplat of the bullet rather than the tip of whatever sort, is that the jump into the lands or "leade" in your given rifle is more important to keep consistent than the nose's exact extension forward of that point.

Since tips can vary due to deformation, and the "jump" into the rifling lands is what's crucial to getting your COAL right, the meplat is a more consistent place to measure and will show less variability than tail-to-nose measurement. Especially with softpoints, but with all types to some degree usually.

The tool I use, and I forget who makes it, clamps onto the "nose end" jaw of your micrometer and measures the COAL to a given point on the bullet meplat - any point since at a fixed diameter, doesn't matter as long as its consistent. Same idea as your bullet seater. Results measured this way, to a consistent point on the meplat, are on the order of +/- .005 even with remchester-type bullets usually. As the sloped rear of the meplat engages the bullet into the rifling and not the tip, that's the most important thing - the "jump" for a given bullet/rifle. Just my opinion, hope this helps.

 

[depoloni]

Of course, a weak linkage or perhaps a not-firmly seated die in the press, or stem in the die, could give the problems you're having no matter where you measure as others have already mentioned.

 

[broham]

I just got done reloading some 308. COL was set at 2.8. I got most all at that but some were 2.798 and 2.8015. I'm using a comp Forster seater. I like this seater a lot so far but I thought they would all be the same once the die was set up. I guess with all the variables it's almost imposible to get them all perfect.

 

[MCMXI]

and the reason that nearly all seating dies engage on the meplat of the bullet rather than the tip of whatever sort

Just to be accurate here, the "meplat" is the flat or "tip" on the front end of the bullet A good rifle caliber seating die contacts the ogive of the bullet and not the meplat or tip. I suppose technically all bullets have a meplat although it might be miniscule on spitzer type bullets. Also, I suppose not all bullets have an ogive in the truest sense of the word. A semi-wadcutter for instance has a meplat but the rest of the bullet is really a truncated cone or something like that and not a curved surface.

 

[Chris Rhines]

If you have a C-Frame Lee single-stage, the problem is that the frame and linkage of the press are flexing. Only solution is to use a different press.

- Chris

 

[HJ857]

A couple responses got it right, the tips of most bullets are not consistent and if they're soft points they can deform or squish down and fool your OAL reading. This has nothing to do with your press at all.

The bullet engages the rifling at the widest point - the ogive. To get a real reading of consistent seating depth you need to measure to the ogive and ignore the overall length.

To do this easily go out and get one of the Hornady bullet comparator and it'll make your life a great deal easier.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=231904&t=11082005

You attach the red piece to your caliper, then install the collet for your caliber, close the caliper and zero it, from that point on you're measuring to the ogive. It may sound a bit confusing right now, but you'll figure it out right away once you start using it. it is not difficult at all. I think this is the ONLY way to measure bullet seating.

To determine your maximum OAL, which for an AR is usually going to be the longest length that will fit in your magazine (and some mags are shorter than others), you have to fall back on your OAL measurement, measure the length of a number of your bullets. Use the one that best fits the average length.

Start with your seating die backed off a full turn and seat the bullet. Measure the OAL, seat the bullet in a bit deeper, measure again, do this until you reach your preferred OAL, then attach the Comparator and measure to the ogive, this will yield a very good starting point. You'll find that measuring from the ogive is FAR more consistent and you won't have to adjust the seating depth hardly at all from that point on.

You'll be tempted to tweak the seating depth, which is fine, but a few thousandths under you're ideal length is not a big deal. However if you're pushing the maximum length for magazine use, a couple thousandths longer could cause some feed issues.

 

[Walkalong]

2.217
2.215
2.218
2.219
2.220
2.220
2.218
2.227
2.213
2.220
2.201
2.220
2.210

Not unusual. The O.A.L. is not so important. The amount of distance from the ogive to the lands is important. Many bullets that shoot just fine are not so consistent in O.A.L. of the bullet. Like HJ857 said, if you want to know how consistent the ogive's are, get a tool to measure it, like the Stoney Point one or similar.

Hey JD. Those Win 55 Gr FMJ bullets are going to give poor O.A.L. readings, but will shoot just fine for plinkers. They were never meant to be match bullets, just cheap. I have shot plenty of them. If they shoot under 2.5 MOA consistently, I will be surprised. I prefer to use my Redding Taper crimp die for them because the cannelure/ogive relationship is so inconsistent.

 

[JDGray]

AC,

I managed a few same hole groups, up to .5, at 40yrds with them. I need a good rest, sandbag, everytime my heart would beat, my gun would jump

 

[RikSors]

Have you tried measuring your shell case length for uniformity? That might make a difference to start with. I simply batch them and go from there.

 

[SSN Vet]

if you're loading FMJ bullets, do this little experiment:

measure half a dozen bullet lengths and then look carefully at the ogive.

I have this same problem with Win 55 gr. FMJ and use the same Lee seating die.

I shoot for ~2.240" and live with ~2.220" to 2.260" or +/- .020" worst case.

After measuring every bullet for several hundred, my best estimate is that I actually get more like ~80% bullets +/- .002" and about 15% that run +/- .005" and ~5% that hit > than +/- .005".

Now I just set the die for 2.220", check the next four or five, and if they're in the 80% range, I leave it be and stop measuring.

If you use a match grade bullet, the variation in bullet shape will be much less and that same Lee die will hold +/- .002" all day long.

 

[HJ857]

I work very similarly to SSN Vet, but my tolerances are a bit tighter. My max length regardless of ogive measurement is 2.265, but my minimum length is only 2.258. I also use Lee dies and also find that it's rare to have a bullet seat outside my optimum length.

If you measure only from the tip of the bullet, rather than from the ogive, you'll be fooled in to thinking that the bullet seating is a nearly random process.

just a couple other notes, the Stoney Point was taken over by Hornady, so Stoney Point is no longer around, but it's the exact same equipment.

Also case length does not affect OAL. Case length will only affect how deeply the bullet is seated inside the case. So a longer case will put more of the bullet inside the case. That leads to trim length, which is a whole new discussion...