Constitutional crisis could split European Union...

[Mike Irwin]

Interesting article. Some are touting it as the beginning of the end of the European Union if a compromise can't be reached.

I'm fully expecting the EU to fall eventually, I'd just be very surprised if it happened this quickly.

From Reuters...


BRUSSELS, Belgium (Reuters) - The fate of the European Union (news - web sites)'s first constitution hung in the balance at a decisive summit Friday as leaders showed few signs they could break a deadlock over voting power within the bloc.

Italy, which as EU president has struggled since October to steer 25 bickering present and future member states to agreement on the historic treaty, prepared the way for possible failure saying it would not accept a deal at any cost.


The core of the debate is how much power the four biggest states -- Germany, France, Britain and Italy -- will wield and how much integration EU leaders can swallow.


Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi raced through the regular summit agenda in the first session Friday to free time to focus on the new constitution, designed to streamline EU institutions.


The dispute pits Germany and France against two of the continent's medium-sized states, Spain and Poland, which are determined to cling to the existing system, which gives them voting rights out of proportion to their populations.


"The voting system is the obstacle that can block the whole agreement, and that is a pity," Berlusconi told reporters.

Continued at link...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&e=2&u=/nm/20031212/wl_nm/eu_summit_dc

 

[Owen]

bicameral legislature anyone?

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

I would prefer that it fall apart. Competition among the nation-states only contributes to freedom and liberty. A huge, centralized bureaucracy infringes on efficiency and freedom. With SCOTUS citing EU courts in decisions , we are all better off with a free Europe.

Picture Ginsburg citing socialist policies from the EU, or gun control policies from England. No, we are better served with competition and the resulting freedoms.

 

[alan]

If the EU did actually fail, would the Belgians and the French be driven to taking up honest labor? No, they would find another way.

 

[longeyes]

Ah, trouble in the Fourth Reich? Quel dommage.

 

[LoneStranger]

Shucky-dern, wasn't this one of the problems that was dealt with by the Good Ol' Boys who cobbled together the Constitution of the U.S. of A.

The question is whether they come away from their love of Feudalistic-Socialism and go to a somewhat better system?

Naw, they have probably got to much schooling and not enough education.

 

[jimpeel]

I forget, which one are we; Oceania, Eurasia, or Eastasia?

 

[tiberius]

Hee Hee...I believe Oceania is/was/will be North America, UK & Australia. East Asia, basically Asia. Eurasia, Europe and Russia. I can't remeber where SA and Africa fit in though.

 

[RWK]

Hi Mike,

Wouldn’t it be JUST AWFUL if the EU imploded?

Best regards, you neighbor-- Roy

 

[Iain]

You all afraid of another big dog?

But more seriously, I strongly believe in the EEC, I do not believe in all this political togetherness and 'people of Europe' business. Moves like the single currency are more political than economic. Why should the French and the British get on just because we live near to each other? Seems like a damn good reason to not get on, after all we have been beating hell out of each other for nearly a millenia. Same with the French and Germans, and pretty much any combination of countries in Europe.

I also fail to see any advantage to strong economies like the UK and the Germans by attaching themselves to weak ones and incredibly bureaucratic and protectionist economy's like France's. Worse still some of the Eastern European nations. The UK and Germany won't drag them up until we all compete with the US as much as they will drag us down. That isn't at odds with my first statement, I believe the EEC doesn't have to be about pooled economies, more about freer trade and inter-european corporations co-operating.

But you all know what Eddie Izzard says right? 'I'm from Europe. That's where the history comes from.'

 

[MicroBalrog]

Actualy, the split of the EU is a good thing.

Let me explain:

1.The EU maintains a standard for victimless crime laws, for example no EU country may legalize heroin - or full-auto weapons.

2.At least some EU countries want to make these laws more liberal (in the original sense) than what they look like now (Italy is a fine example)

3. Dismantling the EU would make local lobbying an easier prospect.

 

[agricola]

st johns makes good points as always.

Pretty soon the "economic" European nations - chiefly Germany and the UK - will realise that in any EU they will (and are) paying for the likes of France and Italy to protect themselves against chiefly British and German business / agriculture, as well as for the endemic corruption in (especially) French political / business circles.

Then expect to see a radical change of power within the EU. Personally, there is much good in the economic side of European integration for the people of the UK; and there are things that Europe can do better collectively than individually (common defence procurement and collaboration in defence is one of these).

micro,

the possession and distribution of heroin is legal in the UK with a licence, as it is in most of the EU.

 

[romulus]

I see people like Romano Prodi, a dangerous man, regrouping with his French and German allies and eventually ramming a constitution down Europe's throats. I'm not optimistic about a return to a natural state of affairs, with nations minding their own stores. Kudos to Italy, Spain, and Poland for resisting the movement toward a European superstate.

Glad to see Agricola getting over the 4-0 shellacking of Cymru in Milan...

 

[papercut]

Didn't we just go through this about 216 years ago?

"Connecticut compromise," anyone?

 

[MicroBalrog]

the possession and distribution of heroin is legal in the UK with a licence, as it is in most of the EU.

As a medical drug, right?

 

[igor]

... not to mention our full-auto laws...

OK, it's practically very rare that anyone would jump the hoops, but it IS legally possible.

 

[igor]

No U.S.E.!!!

Towards the actual topic, I'm glad the "constitution" didn't make it yet. Discussion around it has been flawed and nowhere near adequate yet. To contradict myself, I'm starting to lean towards a referendum on it the next time around.

And won't be unhappy to see it sink again. We don't need or want any kind of a "united states of Europe". We need sensible co-operation in trade, monetary policy and defence, no more Mediterranean bureaucracy, corruption and self-righteous posing. Most specifically we don't need any pompous cock on a pedestal as some kind of a " roi du soleil". Of the aspects above, only the economic side seems to start working, eventually. Defence sure isn't, apart from the quite original principal goal of keeping France and Germany from each others' throats... and the last three are starting to me thoroughly.

France and Germany took the bisquit by wee-weeing on the fiscal policy with their excessive deficit and that was a welcome reminder. I also agree with our much-bashed friends from the island in between, Western Europe will never foot the bill of dragging the Eastern side on its feet.

And here up north we aren't going to join the choir of the police state hoplophobes of continental Europe either. Ever. Finland will remain a country with a well regulated militia, let the crowded continent put their hope on the mercy of their mercenary troops that'll never keep them from invasion...

Where the did I get this rant onslaught? :banghead:

 

[Iain]

Where the did I get this rant onslaught?

I don't know but you are singing my tune, keep at it.

 

[MicroBalrog]

And here up north we aren't going to join the choir of the police state hoplophobes of continental Europe either. Ever. Finland will remain a country with a well regulated militia, let the crowded continent put their hope on the mercy of their mercenary troops that'll never keep them from invasion...

Bravo, Igor! Now that's what I was talking about (even though Finland's laws are a tad excessive IIRC, they are still better than the European Directives on the subject).

Do not worry. Very soon it shall all be over.

 

[RobW]

Every Nation will actually be suffocated by bureaucracie, if it allows it's rise to uncontrollable size. ALL western nations have this kind of death-wish.

edited for messing up spelling