Controlling gun powder odor in Maryland

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griz, from http://198.187.128.12/

"(b) Exceptions.- This section does not prohibit: ...

...(4) the wearing, carrying, or transporting by a person of a handgun used in connection with an organized military activity, a target shoot, formal or informal target practice, sport shooting event, hunting, a Department of Natural Resources-sponsored firearms and hunter safety class, trapping, or a dog obedience training class or show, while the person is engaged in, on the way to, or returning from that activity if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster; ..."

I would read that fairly liberally as in not prohibiting resonable stops, but as DirtyBrad wrote, there was a bill (HB527) introduced this year to specifically allow rest stops. I don't know where the common perception that one must travel directly to and from the event with no stops originated. Can other Marylanders help explain this?

DirtyBrad, what I was saying was that I wasted money getting the membership because I only went 5 or 6 times. The individual visits would have cost maybe $50, but my membership (family) was $190. I think the individual membership is about $150 and the first year there's a $25 fee. I'm going to use it more this year (I hope) :) . They also have a member's only sale in November that is pretty decent.

Greg
 
It's a fairly severe penalty for having an unloaded firearm in your trunk and I wouldn't put it past the state of Maryland to later say that because you could have been imprisoned for more than a year, you don't qualify for CCW
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Umm, worse than that. The Maryland Attorney General has already interpreted a federal law that says if you are convicted and go to jail for a year or more on a misdomeanor you can't own guns as meaning if you are convicted of a misdomeanor where you can be sentenced to a year or more you can't own a gun. People with no jail time are getting their guns confiscated. Certainly, conviction of a misdomeanor that carries up to 3 years would stop you from getting CCW here if it ever passes since current interpretation of the law in MD would already make it illegal for you to even own a gun.

Are you saying that if I am driving to the SASS regional match in Maryland that I can't even stop to buy gas?
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Yup, that is the law in MD. You can travel to and from your event, but any stops becomes an illegal act in MD.

I would read that fairly liberally as in not prohibiting resonable stops
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Then you'd be reading it wrong. Even the small part you posted says you can only transport a firearm to and from certain activities. It doesn't say you can stop on the way.

As you yourself mention, there is even a bill to ammend the law to allow rest stops and the like. Do you really think that the legislature would think that was needed if your interpretation that it is already legal to do so was correct?
 
Thanks for the input, Chaim. As you state, the legislators clearly think that no stops are permitted. I guess I get confused because when I call my wife from Happy Hour and say I'm "on the way home", it's obvious to me that a stop is part of being "on the way" :evil:

While the law does not state that you can make a stop, it does not specifically say that you can't stop on the way. While I'm making a joke in the previous paragraph, I think one could be stopped at a gas station or restaurant and honestly say "I'm on the way home". Of course that's just my opinion :scrutiny: . I wonder if anyone has ever been busted for this.

Greg
 
I'm certainly not a lawyer, but it does seem a reasonable interpatation would include ordinary stops. For instance, as small as Maryland is, there are routes that would require over 200 miles for the trip from the border to the range and back. Are you destined to be a law breaker if you forget to fill up in Virginia? Am I a felon if my car breaks down?

Not trying to nit pick here, but a law that is almost impossible to follow makes very little sense. (not that they don't exist)
 
It also makes me wonder if we're making it too easy for the anti-gunners. I remember the testimony in Annapolis from people saying that it's impossible to travel to a shooting event with kids and not needing to stop. Is it possible that some of those anti-gun legislators were quietly thinking to themselves "we didn't mean you couldn't make a pit stop when we wrote that law!"?

I'm fairly new to this so I don't claim to know the background of the law or about actual case law or interpretations by the AG.

Greg
 
Crap! Chaim, that's hard core, man. What a ridiculous state this is. On the plus side, it'll be a cold day in hell before we get CCW here, so that question is most likely just philosophical.

I wish I hadn't asked. I'm sure I'll never get busted for this, but now I might be nervous enough to actually not keep my pistol in the trunk. What a bunch of crap.

At least I'll be twice as ready to put holes in something once I get to the range after sitting in an extra hour of traffic.

When is my job going to open up an office in Virginia?

The kicker is that -- other than it having some of the worst gun laws in the country -- I love this state.
 
What's the rule with car searches and dogs? It sounds from what you're saying like they can't pop your trunk if you say no, but if they bring out a dog and it indicates that there's something in there, then that's probable cause and they can then search? Am I getting that right?
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absolutely correct, why else would they have dogs. but like others said, drug dogs are drug sogs, explosives are seperate more often than not, but you cnat bet on that, and tupperware wouldnt do it.

it would take more sealing than would ever be worth doing.

how harsh is the penalty???

you need to get 75 little old ladies to get busted while buying milk and change that sucker.
 
On the origonal question, An Explosive Decector Dog will most certainly detect smokeless powder in your vehicle.
Tupperware will not seal well enough and to be matter of fact, the residue on your hand from putting it in the tupperware is enough to get an alert.
There are very few EDD's in circulation anywhere in teh nation but Md has more than it's fair share for certain political reasons.

I wouldn't have a dope dog that worked explosives, the dogs response would be a contra survival behavior trait :D

Sam
 
The kicker is that -- other than it having some of the worst gun laws in the country -- I love this state.
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I know what you mean, it is a good state, and for me that is compounded by having all my family here.

Due to all the federal jobs and businesses serving the government things are pretty recession proof (well, recession resistant) here. There is a lot of history in this state, and in neighboring states within a short drive. While it is very urban for those of us that like that sort of thing (with all the benefits that being in close proximity to a world class city like DC) we are just a short drive from some pretty rural areas if you like that sort of thing (the best of both worlds). In central MD we are just a 2 hour drive from both the beach in one direction and the mountains on the other. While summers are bad (hot and very humid), they are much better than futher south, and winters are quite mild. Culture, camping, beach, boating, fishing, skiing, professional sports, several world class universities, etc.

As a base of operations for visiting other areas we are hard to beat. 4 hours from NYC and all it has to offer, 6-8 hours from Boston and 10 hours from the skiing and mountains of Vermont to the north. 4-6 hours from Richmond and Williamsburg/Norfolk, and an easy days drive from the Carolina beaches to the south. Within that radius there are tons of historical sites.

The DC area is quite expensive, but outside of that most of Maryland offers relatively affordable housing and living expenses. For example, the Baltimore area pretty much matches the national average.

For me there is the added advantage of the largest Orthodox Jewish community in the US outside of New York and New Jersey (and a 2-4 hour drive from the Jersey and NY communties).

However, Northern Virginia offers pretty much all of these advantages (minus the Jewish community, and an extra hour from family for me) while having good gun laws. The only problem there is expensive housing. If the job situation isn't as important, we are only about 2 hours from Phily so moving to PA is a real option as well (with much improved taxes and gun laws). So, while MD is a good place to live, there are nearby areas that match most of our advantages without the bad gun laws and taxes.
 
chaim, I'm with you exactly. That's what I like so much about this area -- that there is so much here and nearby. I can hike the Appalachian, go to the beach, paddle the western Potomac, go to Adams Morgan, ride out to Poolesville, etc, etc, etc.

I wouldn't mind moving to Virginia. I definitely feel like Maryland is home, though. I grew up here, went to UMCP, all that. Not to mention that my job is here and it's a good one. I don't know how much sense it makes to get a CCW and not be able to use it five or six days out of the week (I was going to say have to stow my pistol on the way to and from work every day, but this thread has shown that to be a legal impossibility).

Even so, I don't want to flee home. I want home to be better.
 
DB & Chaim

Both of you have it right on why MD is (otherwise) a great state. And this is coming from a VA guy! :eek: I would love to move to Philly, but since my wife moved from there to MD, she doesn't want to go back! :eek:

The "stopping to/from" thing, even though the law is vague, is a perfect example of the anti-gun-owner slant that is attributed to MD. Combine that with the nonsense about "no loaded handgun magazines" (even though the law doesn't expressly say that), and you can see that any path to hammer gun owners will be taken, so you should be doubly careful.

As to whether the stopping or loaded handgun magazine "gotchas" have ever happened, I did ask Jim Purtillo of Tripwire fame about the magazine thing. He said that he knew of one person charged with improperly transporting a handgun because he had a loaded magazine somewhere in the car. Purtillo said he thinks he remembers that the judge didn't buy the "loaded magazine" basis for the charge and dismissed the case. I have read several "internet rumors" of people getting busted for stopping for gas.

As the MD handgun law is written, it is by default illegal to have a handgun in public, so YOU have to prove that YOU fit into one of the listed exceptions. Unlike VA, MD courts believe they can "read into" state statutes to see what the legislative reasoning is behind a law, and not just take at face value what is written in the statute, and then apply that "reasoning" to the facts before them. :eek: The highest court in MD has stated that the handgun law was enacted to protect people from themselves! :eek: With that in mind, I can see how some judge somewhere in PG or Monkey Counties may have decided that the law's intent was to prevent having a handgun anywhere in public that "could" be used to commit "gun violence," and therefore hammered the poor defendant who got snared by the "gotcha." ("No Taco Bell for you!") If you are ever charged under these wacko MD gun laws, you better hope you get a judge with some sense!

There is a fish & game statute stating that rifle/shotgun magazines must be unloaded during transport. I emailed DNR about this, and their reply was that (DNR at least) wanted no ammo in the firearm itself. This meant detachable magazines separate from the firearm were OK (I asked), but all internal magazines must be unloaded. That is just some person at DNR's interpretation (never got the person's name), so take that as you wish.
 
update: K-9 "reacted" to something in car = handgun found

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/howard/bal-wilcox27,1,3362038.story?coll=bal-local-howard

Former Terp Wilcox arrested on handgun charge
Member of 2002 NCAA championship team pulled over in Columbia

By Baltimoresun.com Staff
Originally published June 27, 2005, 12:17 PM EDT

Former University of Maryland basketball player Chris Wilcox, now of the Los Angeles Clippers, was arrested early this morning after police discovered a handgun in his car during a traffic stop.

Howard County police said they pulled over a silver BMW that was weaving southbound on Route 29 in Columbia around 1 a.m. A K-9 team in the area also responded to assist, according to police, and the dog reacted to something inside the car.

Wilcox, who was driving the vehicle with another passenger inside, then told the officer he had a gun in the car, police said.

The officer discovered a .357 revolver in a pocket behind the front passenger seat, and authorities said one spent casing was found in the weapon. According to police, live ammunition and two spent shell casings were also found inside the car.

It was unknown when the bullets were fired. Wilcox, 22, could not provide documentation that the gun belonged to him or that he had a permit for the weapon, police said.

Wilcox, of Laurel, was charged with transporting a handgun in a vehicle and released on his own recognizance, authorities said. The passenger, who police did not identify, was not charged.

Wilcox was a member of the Terrapins' 2002 NCAA championship team during his sophomore year. He was drafted by the Clippers that June as the No. 8 overall pick.
 
dogs....

forget the Tupperware & Gladwear, too. the "official" capacity of a dog's nose has been described as: "...even(some absolutely ridiculously minute amount) of the targeted substance wrapped in 800 FEET OF PLASTIC is routinely detected by the canine nose..." in any event, if stopped, don't submit to the search, ask if the officer has probable cause, POLITELY, & do not get out of the conveyance; no, i know my rights, & its too dangerous out there....
but you might try:skunk odor, deer rut, Taco Bell Grande Gas, & how about canine estrus, & on the other hand, male canine urine. man, i'd offload ALL the guns & just get down there BEGGIN' them Brown Clowns to stop me so i could try out all the high-tech S**T. :) :)
 
Greg M:

I also tend to shoot at On Target after work (one of these days we should try to get some folks together there, most people I've met there just aren't all that friendly/talkative). It's the first place I ever shot and I've kind of kept going there since it's convenient and relatively inexpensive (if you bring your own ammo and targets). Would a person seriously be in violation for "stopping" at work if they plan to shoot on the way home? Even if the firearm was unloaded, locked in a case locked in a car?

Anybody else here shoot @ On Target?

-d

PS: As far as leaving MD...I've been here my whole life, but I suppose since I'm waiting for my settlement date on a house in PA you know where *I* stand...still be working in MD though.
 
If I recall from the hearings back in February or March there was a statement that there has only been one documented case of someone being prosecuted under this law. Take that for what it's worth.

On the subject of a get together, there is right now a plan to get together at On Target on Wednesday, July 6th. Our very own GirlWithAGun set up the date for us, but we need a time.

I'm free pretty much anytime so do i hear a suggestion?
 
Don't want to Hijack this thread...

is there one around for planning the shoot On Target on the 6th? In a quick look at the "rallying point" forum I didn't see one...

-d
 
MAN!! Thanks K-Romulus for updating the thread with that story. I heard it on the radio a few days and thought to myself "that's why I asked the Tupperware question!!!"

I hate the thought of getting stuck in a situation like that, but obviously keeping the firearm unloaded in the trunk is a lot wiser than in the pocket behind the front seat.

So let's say I got a large ammo box (supposedly air tight) and installed a padlock hasp on it. Does anyone know if the cops need a warrant to get into a locked container that's carried in a vehicle? My understanding is that a locked glove box or briefcase is off-limits.

Deker, it seems that stopping to go to work (for eight hours) on the way to the range probably wouldn't fly with the cop. On the other hand, who says you have to drive a specific route to the range. I typically drive 30 miles (instead of 20 miles) to work because I like highways instead of roads with traffic lights. Who says you were at work at all that day anyway? In fact maybe I started driving from Annapolis to Continental Arms in Timonium and then changed my mind when I got to the beltway and headed south to On Target!

Greg
 
My take on the bball player whose gun got sniffed is that he'd been had.

"My dog just alerted, is there something you want to me to know about?", implying that confessing now was somehow in his interest is one of the oldest con games in the book.

Nervous guy says yes, instantly providing the presumably missing probable cause.

If an officer really has probable cause, I don't think he'd be wasting much time doinking with the suspect, he'd be tearing his car apart.

Remember: The key to retaining your rights is to force the infringing party out on a limb; offer no assistance, make them break locks.

It's a real shame that an honest citizen can't count on the goodwill of the police, but it is what is is.
 
K-Romulus said:
can the regular police sniffer dogs detect smokeless powder? I thought their noses were only for drugz?
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Supposedly. In addition to being masters at taking people down to the ground they are supposed to be able to sniff out anything.

Back in high school our cars were subject to random searches by a dog.

This dog could find cigarettes, chewing tobacco, alcohol, all drugs, guns, and ammunition according to school officials. I really doubt there's much truth to that though. They did never find my smokes, but I wasn't taking chances on the rest of the contraband and tried to keep my vehicle empty of that stuff.
 
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