Convicted Felon Tests Second Amendment

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If a person can be determined too dangerous and untrustworthy to own a gun, they should not be on the streets.


If they are dangerous, they need to remain in jail until they are no longer dangerous.



Out of prison, full rights restored.


Prison terms need to be longer for violent crimes. White collar criminals are the ones who should be on probation.
 
Since it has come up, and if it was explained I missed it,but didnt congress de-fund the the program that allowed felons to get out of the NICIS (federal)database as prohibited persons? I know that it can (and pretty much aways has) still be done in most, if not all states, to be clear as far as the state is concerned, but that is moot if youare still in the federal list of prohibted persons. While one could get permission from the state to buy and own gun, it doesnt mean much if you are still prohibted in the federal datase, and THEY can come and get you for buying./posession (just like medial marijuana laws). I thought this had happened in congress under Clinton. Am I wrong? did it get changed?
 
jrfoxx, it has already been brought up. There is a process defined by law where someone could apply for relief and restoration of firearms rights to ATF. ATF would then investigate and make a determination whether to grant relief. Since 1992 (Bush was president, not Clinton) Congress has refused to provide any money to ATF to process those requests, and has specifically prohibited ATF from spending any part of their budget on those requests. However, as I've posted twice, now three times, there are alternatives to relief, and if someone was convicted in a state court, and has their rights fully restored by the state, they are no longer prohibited under federal law. Fully restored is the key, as some states will grant relief on long guns but not restore rights to handguns. Those felons are still prohibited by federal law from owning ANY firearms or ammunition as defined by the GCA and NFA.

Third time is the charm I hope:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a7

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a8
 
I know a number of people that have been convicted of drug possession charges and lost their legal right to keep and bear arms. I don't believe that drug possession should be a crime and view these people in the same light as anyone else. They're just normal everyday people who pay their taxes and pose no danger to society.

Their conviction and inability to legally purchase or keep a firearm has not prevented a single one of them from doing just that.

There are too many laws.
 
I know a number of people that have been convicted of drug possession charges and lost their legal right to keep and bear arms. I don't believe that drug possession should be a crime and view these people in the same light as anyone else. They're just normal everyday people who pay their taxes and pose no danger to society.
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I have never seen a FELONY PCS case conviction that was not a result of dealing drugs. Every user weight simple PCS case I've seen has been plead down to a misdemeanor, or dismissed. Felony PCS cases that I've seen are the result of dealers taking a plea to avoid the extra jail time if they get convicted at trial of the distribution charge. Further, most first time offenders on felony PCS cases are given a deferred sentence, meaning if they comply with probation the felony charge disappears. Drug users are not the ones getting hammered by the system.
 
I think we are being distracrted by trivial things here.
Many of us are asking for a line to be drawn in the sand. Drug users are ok, dealers are not, white collar criminals are ok, armed robbers are not, rapists are not, child molesters are not. speeding and reckless driving are,,, oops, not discussed yet.
Do any of you feel qualified to decide what is good, and what is bad?
Are you willing to devote your life to Maintaining that line, and keeping it in the right place?
Do you know a politician, or a public servant that you would trust to do it?
Smooth out the sand, remove the line.
Remember, a criminal breaks laws, that is why we call him a criminal. One law, more or less, will not make any difference.

In My Humble Opinion, we need one good law about firearms,,, maybe this one?
 
Originally posted by rocinante
Get a felony conviction for crimes against persons lose your 2nd amendment right for a long long time. Prove rehabilitation then legally petition for restoration. That is the way it works now isn't it?
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Originally posted by NukemJim
No, that is not how it works.

Under current Federal Law (GCA of '68 IIRC) felons lose their rights but can appeal. Unfortunetly the US Congress deleted the funding for the ATF appeal section. So no appeals. None.

USSC ruled that was legal, the mechanism is set up, it is just too bad that noone can use it. All completely legal
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Originally posted by DMF
You are telling half truths here. While it's true that the mechanism to apply for relief from disabilities has not been funded for many years, that is not the only avenue for relief. People with federal convictions can apply for a pardon. Those with state convictions, which are the overwhelming majority of felons can seek relief through various avenues through the state.
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from link posted by DMF
A8) Are there any alternatives for relief from firearms disabilities? [Back]


A person is not considered convicted for Gun Control Act purposes if he has been pardoned, had his civil rights restored, or the conviction was expunged or set aside, unless the pardon, expungement, or restoration expressly provides the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.

Persons convicted of a Federal offense may apply for a Presidential pardon. 28 CFR 1.1-1.10 specify the rules governing petitions for obtaining Presidential pardons. You may contact the Pardon Attorney's Office at the U.S. Department of Justice, 500 First Street, N.W., Washington, DC 20530, to inquire about the procedures for obtaining a Presidential pardon.

Persons convicted of a State offense may contact the State Attorney General's Office within the State in which they reside and the State of their conviction for information concerning any alternatives that may be available, such as pardons and civil rights restoration.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(20) and (a)(33)]
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DMF you are certainly correct in that there is another way of getting rights restored. Based on data acquired from http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/actions_administration.htm
Roughly 50 to 100 people per year recieve presidential pardons.
Thats about the same number of people who will win a multimillion dollar lotto prize.

So yes it is possible but I do not think that that is what the original poster meant. His post implied a working standard method of regaining firearm rights.

I have not gone into state pardon statistics, I just do not have the time to do this for 50 states.

Half truth? Maybe?

Maybe more like 99% truth?

NukemJim
 
?????

anybody read the 15th amendment sec 1.if you have a right to vote does that mean full citizen rights.or does that mean your a felon and cannot vote.
as posted the felony charge arrived in the 1968 gun law.now does that mean that the 68 law was constitutional.
this whole discusion is on racisim-felons being the race.we are against every thing,gays,jews,mormans,catholics,protestants,mexicans,chinese on and on.
think about it. freedom is freedom or it is not.no one wants bad guys loose.but as posted there are bad guys and then there are baad guys.feel good laws are an abomation and should never be allowed.and gun owners should be in the first line against them.not waffling.or others will waffle on you.:uhoh:--:rolleyes:---:fire:--:eek:----:D
 
DMF you are certainly correct in that there is another way of getting rights restored.
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You acknowledge that there are other ways of getting rights restored, and then spend the rest of your post talking only about pardons, and you limit to only presidential pardons.
Based on data acquired from http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/actions_administration.htm
Roughly 50 to 100 people per year recieve presidential pardons.
Thats about the same number of people who will win a multimillion dollar lotto prize.

So yes it is possible but I do not think that that is what the original poster meant. His post implied a working standard method of regaining firearm rights.

I have not gone into state pardon statistics, I just do not have the time to do this for 50 states.

Half truth? Maybe?

Maybe more like 99% truth?

NukemJim
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Again, not even 99% truth. Even half truth is being generous. Many, if not most, states have mechanisms for restoration of rights through the courts, such as expungement, or court orders granting a restoration of rights. That is a much more common way of having rights restored. You even quoted my post that contained the quote of the ATF FAQ that discusses other avenues in addition to pardons, yet you have decided to make the false argument about the odds of getting a pardon, while ignoring the other avenues for a felon to have gun rights restored.
 
DMF, could you please give me some numbers on how many felons have had their 2A rights returned to them by these alternative methods either in percentages or total numbers.

NukemJim
 
"At its essence, the question before the Supreme Court in an upcoming case is whether the Second Amendment gives individuals the right to own guns or grants only a collective right to form militias." -- Convicted Felon Tests Second Amendment
By Joseph Goldstein, NY Sun.

Actually, the way the SCOTUS worded their question seems to assume that the Second Amendment is an individual right: the question they asked was, did banning handguns and requiring rifles and shotguns to be disabled violate the Second Amendment rights of Washingtonians.
 
DMF, could you please give me some numbers on how many felons have had their 2A rights returned to them by these alternative methods either in percentages or total numbers.
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Sorry, I don't have stats on that. I can tell you however I've encountered several people through work who have had their rights restored through various methods, in a variety of states, including one who got a pardon from the Governor. Further, I frequently encounter people who have deferred judgements, meaning if they serve out their probation with no other problems their conviction is removed from their record.

Also, the numbers don't really matter as I said earlier, "I never said it was easy or common to get relief and have firearms rights restored through the state." IMO, it shouldn't be easy to remove a felony conviction from the record of the person convicted. Also, it wasn't very common for ATF to grant relief either before the budget restrictions in 1992. However, to claim there are no, or practically no, avenues to have rights restored is false.
 
I'd like to know if everyone is "Ok" with you being able to lose your other "Rights" because your convicted of a crime?
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I'm not OK with it. If your time has been served you should be free and clear. But I also believe that violent criminals should be spending a lot more time in jail. None should be released until the are at least 45.
 
I bet if convicted felons were allowed to buy guns, the court system would adjust it's penalties accordingly so two time violent offenders wouldn't keep getting released back onto the streets.
 
well you can't even buy a gun if you are dishonorably discharged, felon, mental, etc. someone in another thread said that minorities and criminals are free from impunity. i find that hard to believe. we have laws and if someone wants to changed that they have to goto court.
 
If a person can be determined too dangerous and untrustworthy to own a gun, they should not be on the streets.


If they are dangerous, they need to remain in jail until they are no longer dangerous.
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Since when is being dangerous a crime? You speak of fully restoring rights to those who have done time, but apparently want to keep locked away anyone who is dangerous.

That just doesn't make sense.
 
If I were Lucky I would have at least waited for Heller to be resolved. Anyway I think if it is decided that the second admendment is an individual right, then the argument for felons rights to own guns will based on reasonableness. In other words is it reasonable for a felon who is a first offender, commited a non violent offense say 10 or 15 years ago and has never reoffended to be banned for life from ever owning a gun? I think this will be the only aurgument that will be given serious consideration. After all nobody wants a guy like lucky who shot somone to ever own a firearm. Not even other felons.
 
I think it really comes down to this...
A ot of the things people receive felonies for these days are either complete BS or they are so bad that these guys deserve the freaking death penalty. You've got guys that made a mistake and didn't really hurt anyone that become felons. Then you have guys that commit murder and somehow get OUT OF JAIL in 8 years. You've got high school kids that are having sex with eachother, the 18 year old goes to jail for having sex with his 17 year old girlfriend, becomes a registered sex offender, still marries the girl, but keeps the sex offender status and a felony on his record! I mean... things are way backwards. I think the way we look at offenders of the law should be different. Maybe I'm too hard core.

Wife beaters (or husband beaters I guess) should be publicly beaten. This will make people think twice about repeating this action. Sitting in jail is a cake walk. Real consequences suck.
You "mercy kill" your kids.... you get the firing line. End of story. I don't want you reformed, and let back into society. I don't want my taxes to pay for your mental health sessions. I'm not choosing to kill you... you chose that when you took another person's innocent life.
If we dealt with crime differently we wouldn't have 90% of these "fellons with guns" problems.
Sure it's much broader than that but I didn't have a lot of time to type this.
 
mekender:selling a vibrator is illegal in Texas and Alabama....
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jaholder1971: And everyone there knows it is and those who decided to flaunt the law, got caught, got convicted is now a felon.
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Really, jaholder1971? I’ve lived in Texas for over 20 years and this is the first I’ve heard of this law.

I thought about buying one as a prank gift just to embarrass/annoy my wife. (I decided against it after coming to the realization that I have to sleep next to her every night. She just might have returned the gift while I was sleeping! :what: )

It is a very sobering thought that I could have lost my right to own firearms because of a silly prank. After all, we all know that “ignorance of the law is no defense.”
 
Double Naught Spy
Since when is being dangerous a crime? You speak of fully restoring rights to those who have done time, but apparently want to keep locked away anyone who is dangerous.
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Anyone who has been convicted of a felony assault, armed robbery etc can be said the have been a danger at the time. Someone convicted of murder can be safely said to have been a definate danger at the time of their offense, and many of these can be put to death or given a life term - and thus they are definately not going to be a danger afterwards to anyone else.

While it is not possible to read minds and say whether a person that commits a crime against persons will do it again, it is possible to have universal minimum sentences for certain types of crime. I have consistantly cited corporal punishment followed by hard labor for an appreciable span of time as being a) a fitting punishment, and b) a significant deterrence for certain crimes.

If someone comes before a judge for a similar crime a second time after having served such a sentence, we can safely say that person is a, um, problem. And this time they should not be out for a very long time. No parole, no exceptions.

People who can not be held culpable due to mental impairment - or whatever other term you want to use - need to be under 24-hr direct supervision.

This will not keep "all dangerous people" off the streets. It will not prevent all persons not incarcerated who have been convicted of "any felony" from any violent crime. It will however, when allowing the populace at large to all bear arms freely, reduce the number to insignificance.

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http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
I came across this site as a result of a search about felons owning guns. I am a convicted felon. In 1985 I was convicted of second degree murder in Nebraska, when I was 15 years old. Its a long story but my dad, who is now on death row in NE, raised me in a pretty screwed up environment. About 9 years into my life sentence, the NE supreme court made a ruling that affected my case. My sentence and conviction were overturned. When I went back for a new trial, I ended up pleading guilty to manslaughter and first degree assault. The judge gave me 20 years on each count and ran them concurrent, which in turn, with time served(11 years, 7 months and 29 days) I was released, free from any parole or probation.

That was over 11 years ago. Thanks to my mom and step dad and brother, I had the support and guidance to make a positive transition into society as an adult. I am now married with an 8 year old son. I've learned to operate heavy equipment(100 ton crane for two years) plus I went to school at night for almost two years to complete the AGC Commercial Carpentry course in Wichita. I now work for a county here in Kansas as an equipment operator.

I also voted for the first time four years ago in the presidential elections.

I understand that alot of people think that if you have a felony you should never be allowed to own a gun. I have to disagree. Personally, I think I've proven that I am a productive member of society, regardless of the mistakes of my past. All of my friends and family own guns and hunt. I'd love to be able to do the same with them. But I fear even being around someone who has a gun in their home because I don't want to break a law and lose what I've worked so hard to accomplish.

I just think that after so long, without any brushes with the law, a person's second amendment right should be restored. Set something up, some guidelines or whatever, for a person to prove themselves.
 
What makes us think that the law forbidding felons to own guns would work any better than any other gun control laws? We all know that if a person decides to rob a bank they are breaking the law. Why would they care if they broke another law by carrying a gun, especially if by doing so it would help them in breaking the first law(robbing the bank). My point is, if a felon(or anyone else) decides to commit a crime, he will do it no matter how many other laws he has to break to do it (including gun control laws). A law like that is only hurting now-law-abiding felons such as DennisRyan (post #98) by denying them the joy of hunting and shooting and the right to defend themselves and their families.
 
Yes, I agree with you Dennis. Like previously stated, if someone is safe enough to go out on the streets, he should be able to exercise any and all of his rights.

The problem is not with the Bill of Rights, but rather with the legal system, which often releases violent criminals that are still a threat to society after their prison time.

It's unfortunate that people like you have to pay the price for the screwed up legal system. I have some advice for you. Join the NRA and your state Pro 2nd Amendment organization. Make your voice heard and tell your story to others. It's good that you joined this forum. Stay active here. You will see this forum is a great resource.

Keep active and together with others this system can be changed for the better.
 
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