Cop Can't Tell Taser from 'Real' Gun?!?!

[XLMiguel]

For all the sheople that think only 'highly trained' police officers shoud be the only ones with guns . . . .

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True Stella Awards #36: 30 July 2003 www.StellaAwards.com
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A Stunning Situation
by Randy Cassingham

Madera, Calif., police officer Marcy Noriega had arrested Everardo
Torres, 24, and had him handcuffed in the back of her police cruiser. The
charge was not too extreme: he was arrested "on suspicion of resisting
and delaying police" as they tried to quiet down a noisy party.

Torres, however, was far from cooperative. As he sat in the back of
the police car he kicked at the windows. Officer Noriega decided to
subdue him with her Taser, which fires two metal pins attached to wires
and then charges them with current to "stun" the target.

Amazingly, instead of pulling and shooting Torres with her Taser,
Noriega says she accidentally drew her service handgun and shot him. The
bullet ripped through his heart, liver and right kidney, ensuring his
death.

The District Attorney ruled the shooting accidental and did not file
charges against officer Noriega, but the city admitted liability in the
shooting and offered Torres' family a $350,000 settlement. In response,
the family filed a claim for $10 million. When the city rejected the
claim, the family filed a wrongful death suit in federal court.

Such is not what Stella Awards are made of, however -- complaining
that a professionally trained police officer mistook her firearm for a
non-lethal stun gun to shoot someone in her custody is not frivolous.
Rather, it's what the city said next: officer Noriega isn't at fault for
killing Torres! Not the way she and the city see things, anyway. While
they admit they were "partially responsible for the loss" of Torres'
life, she and the city of Madera have filed suit against Taser
International Inc., the manufacturer of the non-lethal weapon.

The lawsuit says Taser is responsible because the company's training
procedures do not adequately teach police officers the difference between
the Taser and their own handguns. The company, the suit says, "provided
related training and representations in such a manner so as to cause any
reasonable police officer to mistakenly draw and fire a handgun instead
of the Taser device."

Got that? "Any reasonable police officer" could pull the wrong gun and
kill a suspect they merely mean to stun! Considering the thousands of
police officers in the USA, and how long Tasers have been on the market
-- coupled with the dubious "fact" that "any reasonable police officer"
is likely "to mistakenly draw and fire a handgun instead of the Taser
device" -- there must be hundreds of cases of just that happening, right?

Wrong. In their research, Madera's lawyers found just two previous
cases of such mistakes, though both times the unfortunate victims
survived. "Once we found the two other incidents, we made [a] change" in
Madera police procedure, advising officers not to carry their Taser on
the same side of their belts as their handguns, says the city's lawyer.
(Remember! The gun on left to stun, the one on the right to kill. Got
it?)

The suit says Taser was "aware" its training methods were flawed, and
had "a duty" to inform police departments of the risk that a trained
professional might grab the wrong gun. The suit asks that Taser pay
whatever amount the Torres family wins from their wrongful death lawsuit.

Cops have incredibly stressful, important jobs. To get that job done
they're given astounding powers, up to and including killing citizens who
are threatening others. With those powers come similarly awesome
responsibilities, such as carefully preserving suspects' rights and
knowing when -- and how -- to use the various weapons at their disposal.
For Madera and officer Noriega to stand up in public to say "any
reasonable police officer" doesn't know the difference between a non-
lethal weapon and a handgun is an insult to every professional peace
officer -- and an abdication of the responsibility that has been placed
on them. Torres was likely not a choirboy, but his death is a tragic
accident, and shouldn't be treated as an opportunity for the city to try
to pin the blame on an equipment supplier.


SOURCE:
1) "Madera Sues Taser Maker", The Fresno Bee, 29 July 2003
http://StellaAwards.com/cgi-bin/redirect3.pl?36a

 

[Pilgrim]

This is a case where it is easy to get confused what the "Twinkie" defense really means.

Pilgrim

 

[Kaylee]

well, that's what you get when you issue everybody plastic pictols that feel like toys in the first place.

seriously... seriously bad call.. I guess I can see it happening in a moment of stress, but.... yeesh... There but for the grace of God....



Hrmm.. it never occured to me.. you don't suppose Captain Kirk ever vaporized somebody, looked down at the little power meter thingie on his phaser, and said.. "ooops..."

-K

 

[Preacherman]

you don't suppose Captain Kirk ever vaporized somebody, looked down at the little power meter thingie on his phaser, and said.. "ooops..."

Now THAT's an episode of ST that I'd like to see...!

 

[Standing Wolf]

Amazingly, instead of pulling and shooting Torres with her Taser, Noriega says she accidentally drew her service handgun and shot him.

Commoners don't need guns. We're supposed to dial 911 and rely on the police to protect us.

 

[capt_happypants]

Well, she did get a one-shot stop.

 

[FedDC]

Guys, I can assure you that cops can tell the differece. She is obviously not a good cop. Agencies have real difficulties training women in the use of firearms. We have had females that finished the entire firearms program and still didn't understand why the gun went bang when you pulled the trigger. Women can't be yelled at or remediated without serious issues for fear of getting an EEO complaint. And yes, I do think that people should have their own guns and lots of them. I say, fight crime...shoot back! and I am an LEO.

 

[pax]

FedDC,

Yeah, I'm sure it was her gender that caused the problem.

It wouldn't be because the butt of a taser feels exactly like the butt of a Glock, and was carried mere inches from the gun.

It wouldn't be because she needed more or better training.

It certainly wouldn't be because human beings tend to lose concentration in highly-stressful situations, nor because Mr. Murphy is ever present on the scene.

No, it'd just be her gender.

</heavy sarcasm>

pax

 

[Orthonym]

Uh, folks, when you say gender,

don't you really mean sex? (see my sig)

 

[Pilgrim]

A few issues here to consider.

1.) Tasering a handcuffed prisoner because he is kicking the back windows of the patrol car is stretching the defiinition of a "measured" response to a prisoner's misbehavior.

2.) With regards to FedDC's comment about women, here is the initial story on the shooting. Note that in the story Madera PD officers could not get control over the party and Madera County Sheriff's deputies were called. The male deputy and one male Madera PD officer went inside the apartment while Madera PD's three female officers, including acting-Watch Commander Marcie Noriega were left outside to watch over the under-age drinkers and juvenile detainees. Also note that the officer who shot Torres was the watch commander. Yet she remained outside and turned over control of the problem to the Madera County Sheriff's deputies.

3.) It appears from the story the entire shift working that night of Madera PD consisted of one male officer and three female officers.

Having worked in law enforcement for 17.5 years, here is the impression I get of the events that night. Officer Noriega is incompetent and certainly a weak watch commander. I cannot imagine a watch commander in a similar situation calling in another agency, giving them and the one department male officer instructions to solve the problem, then staying outside with the rest of the women officers to guard the juveniles.

I know of another department in my county that promoted a woman officer to the rank of sergeant and watch commander. During a similar free for all in the projects, she remained outside directing traffic while her officers and sheriff's deputies went inside to stop the disturbance/fight. Guess what kind of reputation she had after that affair?

Pilgrim

 

[TheeBadOne]

Duplicate thread

Duplicate thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33440
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The taser is shaped just like a hangun, functions the same way. For that reason Taser now recommends the taser hoslter be strapped on cross draw. Most had/have been strapping them on the same leg as the their gun, right next to it (attached to belt/thigh). Taser says that under stress it's too easy to grab the wrong tool (you draw w/o looking).

 

[dustind]

not trying to go off topic, but...

How can anyone use "lack of training" as a defence when they put other people's lives in their hands? If you do not know how to use a firearm, car, or anything else capable of killing others, do not use it. She should have shown up to work on her first day and said "sorry, I do not have enough training in firearms to do my job." What are people thinking when they carry(or drive) something capable of ending someone else's life without knowing how to use it? :banghead:

 

[4v50 Gary]

"I reached for my Taser but pulled out my Taurus"

Sorry, don't know what her sidearm was.

I remember when that happened. Big stink now is how the Taser feels too much like the primary piece. Should have shaped it like the Klingon Blaster.

 

[greyhound]

I was sort of wondering how this could have happened (I always thought a Taser was a blocky square-type thing) then - Good grief - that thing looks just like a Glock!

Now I know training has a lot to do with it, but if the officer had that thing anywhere near her service firearm, in the heat of the struggle I might could see how there might be a tragic mistake.

I think it should definately be crossdrawn or something to get it away from the firearm!

(Course I do not claim to be even a little bit of any expert on police procedures).

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

The Training Issue

The thing is, Taser International specified, in their training and bulletins, long before this incident, that it should never be carried on the strong side.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

All the more reason for cops not to carry things as absurd as condiment sprays and toy spark guns.

If clubbing the suspect in the head doesn't work, shoot the S.O.B.!

 

[MJRW]

Pax,

I think you may have completely missed his point. I don't believe he is saying that women can't learn the difference. It looks to me like he's saying if you've got one man and one woman trainee who are having difficulty with firearms concepts, that a male trainer can yell and berate and just be an a$$ to the male until he the trainee gets it. The male trainer can't do that to the female trainee for fear of being punished in some way.

 

[Quartus]

Now I know training has a lot to do with it, but if the officer had that thing anywhere near her service firearm, in the heat of the struggle I might could see how there might be a tragic mistake.

What struggle? What stress? He was HANDCUFFED and LOCKED IN THE CAR! HE POSED NO IMMEDIATE THREAT WHATSOEVER! She had all the time in the world to act carefully. She didn't. I hope the family's lawyer hammers that point home. Shaped like a Glock or not - there is no excuse for this. In other situations, maybe. But not this time.



Pax, are you trying to say that women in law enforcement receive equal treatment? That unqualified women don't get passed through the various academies and even promoted (all the way to captain) simply because there is pressure to "equalize" the numbers on the force? That standards have not been lowered across the board to make sure that enough females pass tests so that the feminazis will get off the backs of the politicians who control the purse strings?

If you don't think all that is ROUTINELY happening, you are living in la-la land.

 

[Coronach]

Yeah, there are some screwed up aspects to this event, I assure you. All that aside, my rant about tasers:

1. They should not be shaped like a gun.

2. They should not be carried like a gun.

...because if they are, you will inadvertantly shoot someone you meant to zap, or zap someone you wanted to shoot. While the latter might be acceptable, the former rarely is.

I don't really like crossdraw, either. Why? Well..do you favor open-carry crossdraw for your sidearm? No. Why? Its too much like offering the bad guy your weapon. Same here.

As to the lack-of-training defense, it easily could be valid. Unlike a firearm, or a baton, you cannot just go out and practice on your own with your department's taser. Your training is pretty much limited to whatever your department (read: your mayor and city council, by proxy) has decided is appropriate. And its not enough.

Mike

 

[pax]

Pax, are you trying to say that women in law enforcement receive equal treatment? That unqualified women don't get passed through the various academies and even promoted (all the way to captain) simply because there is pressure to "equalize" the numbers on the force? That standards have not been lowered across the board to make sure that enough females pass tests so that the feminazis will get off the backs of the politicians who control the purse strings?

No, I didn't say any of those things.

I said that there were more reasons than simply her gender why this might have happened.

If you think otherwise, you're probably living in la-la land.

pax

There's nothing wrong with shooting so long as the right people get shot. -- Dirty Harry Calahan

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

The Design and Carry Issues

1. Well, if the best general configuration for a hand held projectile weapon is unavailable (the product of centuries of experimentation), then which of the inferior designs should be forced on us all because of someone elses incompetence?
   
2. As to crossdraw carry, there are innovative companies, like SOTECH out of California, that make holsters with a full flap, and a Fastex buckle, which provides protection for the weapon, and is an entirely different system of retention, to make confusion less likely. The Taser is an excellent tool, but if you don't have it with you, the majority of the situations in which it could be useful are either over with, or have escalated significantly by the time you go all the way to the car and back.
   [/list=1]

 

[Kharn]

I wonder if it would be possible to get the Tazer a MkII-like grip angle. Something thats very, very different from most conventional handguns (unless the PD issues Lugers) should be easy for the cops to tell apart by touch alone, even when wearing leather gloves.

Kharn

 

[Augustwest]

I really like how little personal responsibilty factors into this story. :banghead:

 

[Futo Inu]

"Remember! The gun on left to stun, the one on the right to kill. Got
it?"

Damn you! [sniffling tea back out of nostils]. Lessee, dumb officer uses gun to kill suspect. Answer - sue the maker of device which was not involved in the situation at all. Hmm, fortunately, this lawsuit will go nowhere. I have confidence in that.

 

[TarpleyG]

You know, I have a solution to problems like this. She wouldn't have ventilated the guy had she not been trying to resort to a less-lethal PC solution to the problem to keep the sheep happy. Get rid of all the less lethal crap (save batons and pepper spray) like tasers, bean bags, nets, etc., etc. and voila, problem solved. Let the guy kick the **** out of the inside of the squad car. Who cares. But NOOOOOOO, she had to try and subdue the guy and ended up putting a bullet in him.

FWIW, I have several friends in LE and THEY state that the female officers for the most part do not make good police officers. Just stating observations so you can flame me if you want to. I am certain there are several examples to the contrary.

GT