Cougar/handgun/woman...

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A woman friend of mine who walks her dogs on mountain trails around her house has learned that a cougar has been spotted nearby, and she's asked me what kind of handgun I would recommend she carry for protection in this situation. She has fired rifles, but never handguns, and is already signing up for a safety class. My initial reaction is to recommend a .357mag. with a 4" barrel. It seems to be the simplest, most reliable, and most versatile in terms of ammo. Is that enough bullet to stop a cougar? I know there is pepper spray for bears, is there anything similar for cougars?

In terms of understanding their behavior, I emailed her this info from a recent issue of Outdoor Life:

I found the article on animal attacks. It's 90% about bears, because they are the most unpredictable and complex, and a few paragraphs on Moose. "Big cats", on the other hand, were summarized quite succinctly:

[from the sidebar]
"Rarely if ever will you see a cougar before it sees you. If it approaches, it intends to eat you. Act big, talk loudly and prepare to fight."

[and from the article, a bit redundant]
"If a cougar approaches you, it's probably hungry. Make yourself as large as you can. Raise and spread your arms out and yell. If that doesn't stop the cougar, fight for your life."
 
a 357 would be a good choice with 180 gr slugs or even consider a 41 mag. I think the 357 would be alot better I no smith and wesson makes a 7 shot revolver in the 4 inch barrel i cant remember what model. or the colt python is a good choice. cougers are thin skinned animals like deer so you dont need alot of gun just make sure shes proficiant with the one she chooses put some rounds thru it and she souldnt have anything to worry about
 
How big is she? I would not be in too big of a hurry to recomend a .357 or .44 magnum if she cant handle the recoil enough to take a follow up shot if need be. I think a .45 loaded up with good hollow points would be enough to stop a cougar. Not to mention a big magnum with a 4inch barrel would be kinda hard to conceal, if shes not allowed to open carry.
 
Quote: "180 gr slugs"

Methinks those designed for deep penetration, little expansion - and have max recoil. If .357, I'd suggest lighter JHP, maybe even 38s, then move up to +Ps or the likes of 125g .357 Gold Dots after acclimation. Recovery time for extra shots, if needed, can be considerably longer with hot or heavy .357s.
 
I think 3 or 4" 357 mag revolver is the way to go. I would look at Smith & Wesson, Ruger, and Colt revolvers. Taurus also if they feel good. My 3" Ruger GP100 would be ideal in this application and it can be used for home defense also. Shots would be close. As mentioned, shoot 38's first and work up in power. I would probably want to carry it in a bandolier type shoulder holser as they are easy to adjust, you don't have the issue of concealing a gun, and gun is pretty accessible. Try out Uncle Mike's holsters.
 
If she's walking the dogs, the real fight probably is going to be between the cougar and the dogs, and probably won't even involve her. While one can't argue with a full size .357 or .44, you may have to make a compromise between recoil, stopping power, weight and ease of carry. I tend to like a medium caliber in a relatively compact package, with the option to make it larger by using a larger magazine with an adapter, such as the Glock 27 in .40or my personal favorite, a Beretta Mini-Cougar in .40.
 
Thanks for all of the feedback.
How big is she? I would not be in too big of a hurry to recomend a .357 or .44 magnum if she cant handle the recoil enough to take a follow up shot if need be.
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She's about 5'2" hwp. The recoil aspect is one thing that moved me towards the .357 revolver, because as others have mentioned, she can move down to 38spl. +P or even just .38's if need be.

Not to mention a big magnum with a 4inch barrel would be kinda hard to conceal, if shes not allowed to open carry.
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All of the trails are within the 50 acre property she lives on, so in this situation she can carry any method she wants.

If she's walking the dogs, the real fight probably is going to be between the cougar and the dogs, and probably won't even involve her.
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Depending on which of the dogs she had with her (they vary in age and size), the 'dog factor' could be just moments, or perhaps as long as a minute - but I would imagine it would be over rather quickly. She would like to protect herself and her dogs if possible. Some of the dogs are walked on leases, others not. She also jogs sometimes without them.

While one can't argue with a full size .357 or .44, you may have to make a compromise between recoil, stopping power, weight and ease of carry.
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This is where the idea of carrying a gun will meet the reality of it, and I'll be interested to see what compromises she is willing to make. I would not be surprised if she experiments with several styles of holster, as any of us who carry have.

I tend to like a medium caliber in a relatively compact package, with the option to make it larger by using a larger magazine with an adapter, such as the Glock 27 in .40or my personal favorite, a Beretta Mini-Cougar in .40.
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We discussed semi-auto's briefly, because she had talked with someone who told her "get a Glock". The truth is that I often choose my Glock as my woods gun (G32/.357SIG) because of it's reliability, compact size, light weight, and high capacity. But, for a first and probably only gun, a revolver makes sense to me.

She's going to call around and see if there are any ranges in her area that rent guns. From the little research I have done, I don't think so. I don't have a huge variety of guns that I can bring, but I have a few relevant ones. I own two S&W 686's, ironically neither are 4" - one is a 2.5" and the other is a scoped 6". They can give her the general idea. I also have a 442, which I would not recommend to her, but I can let her try. Other than that, all I have are semi-autos.
 
I agree with WYO about the probability of a cougar focussing on the dogs rather than on her.

Handgun? I'd think a revolver such as you mentioned. Practice with plinkers; shoot two or three cylinder's worth of full-power loads to get used to the recoil, and carry the full-power loads. I'd venture that loads around 140 to 160 grains would be good; hunting bullets.

Cougars aren't all that hard to kill, compared to bears or big deer. I've no idea why that is, but that's my conclusion from reading all manner of stories about them. (I've seen them in the wild, but not shot one.)

The biggest problem she'll face, most likely, is controlling herself during a Great Adrenalin Rush. It's one thing to be walking along and suddenly there's a cougar in the trail ahead, looking at you. That's not all that uncommon a stylee of encounter, and 99% of those come to nothing but noise.

It's something else if the dogs go after the cat, or if the cat jumps from ambush onto a nearby dog. That's when self-control becomes paramount.

Art
 
If she's on her own property - is there a reason that she's considering a handgun instead of a slung shotgun?
 
I'd recommend the shotty, but kinda hard to jog with one slung on! A lot of 357 recommendations, but shooting one may be a very unpleasant experience for someone so small. A 38 revo stoked with +P's would be the bare minimum methinks for cats. As far as the Glocks, they usually aren't small-hands friendly, especially the full-size models. How about some sort of 10mm auto if she can stand the recoil?
 
As far as the shotgun goes, I think she's looking for a more long-term solution.

As as general rule, I give out as little information as is possible or necessary on the Internet, especially about other people. Here's a piece of the puzzle that will shed a bit more light on the situation. On the property is a dog rescue. There are usually between 8-12 dogs in a kennel. Because it is a "rescue" the dogs are all ages and ranges of health. It happens to be Pit Bulls that are being rescued -- I did not mention that intentionally, because one might think "no problem, sick the dogs on the cat!" -- but some of these dogs have suffered debilitating injuries. While they do have unusually strong jaws, they are for the most part short stocky dogs that don't seem to move very quickly... maybe they did in better days.

There is enough deer and other wildlife in these mountains that I doubt a dog would be the cougar's first choice for dinner. Specifically, I don't know what instinct would be set off in the cat if it saw a dog that was limping. Regardless of what you or I might think about rescued Pit Bulls - and most of these did not make it as fighters and that's why they were abandoned - the bottom line is she loves the dogs, that's why they were rescued. Believe it or not, all of them are really sweet dogs, the ones that are not are put down.

Part of what my friend does is to exercise the dogs daily by walking them on the paths. In all, she probably walks several miles a day. I would venture to guess that even the oldest and most feeble would not back down from the cat, it would come down to a matter of how long it takes the cougar to kill that particular dog. The fact that the dogs are paraded down the same paths, at relatively the same time of day, might give the cougar time to think about the meal factor and make it more tempting - I really don't know.

I've thought about the small hands factor. I have a Kahr K40 for instance, that for various reasons I would not recommend, even though I think it would fit her hands well. I think some time at the range will be very telling.
 
There is no such thing as overkill with a cougar.

I'd be carrying a .44 with nasty HP's, but that's because I have it.

Taurus makes an 8-shot .357. Might be worth looking into. Realistically, any attack would likely be from a tree behind you/her, so a pig-sticker on her belt might be the best choice.
 
Take her to the range, she how "big" she can handle and still shoot safe and straight.

Best she's not afraid to pull the trigger in the time of need and shoot well enough not to take one of her dogs out for the big kitty.
 
Factory grips on 3" GP100 are small and folks like me with small hands really like them even if they aren't that purrty. I really like my GP100. It is the only Ruger centerfire I've got. Rest are Smiths and Colts. I would carry a speed loader full for reload though... just because.

An acquaintence here had a dachound and it had a cougar "treed" on a pile of lumber over in the Blue Ridge; the cat was ready to pounce when he got there. Seeing him, the cat ran off immediately and he grabbed the dog to keep it from chasing the big cat. No, it was not a bobcat.

Pit Bull for kitty dinner, hmm? I wrote more, deleted it; just trying not to judge.
 
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Pit Bull for kitty dinner, hmm? I wrote more, deleted it; just trying not to judge.
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I appreciate your choice not to judge - but that said, I obviously don't know much about the subject and came here to learn all I can.

Is it commonly accepted that a full grown 150lb +/- cougar will not attack a medium sized dog (unless chased)?
 
Don't ever joke about these cats and dogs. Cougars will hunt down and eat dogs. One cougar worked over the dog and cat population in the small town of Fort Davis, Texas, some years back. Down here, about 20 years ago, a cougar went inside the "dog room" of a house and killed a dog inside and carried it off and ate it.

A buddy of mine came out here with two large dogs; arrived late to his hunt camp, and brought the dogs inside for the night. He let them out the next morning. Heard noises, soon after. Armed with his morning cup of coffee, he went out to see what it was all about. He found he was down to one dog.

In lion country, a good name for a dog ain't Phaideaux; it's Lion Bait.

Oh: Cougars are quite happy with chickens and goats, also--we've discovered around here...

:), Art
 
From what I've been told... and acknowledging that I've never actually seen a cougar in the wild (bobcat yes, cougar no)...

There are two types of behavior. First is territory defense, second is hunting.

Territory defense is triggered when the cat thinks you might be an equal. The cat will stare you down (perhaps from a tree... you may not know it is doing it) and then attack with the intention of driving you off. It is a claw/swipe attack. Two stories along those lines are, "I was walking down a path and a cougar walks on to the path in front of me... I freeze, it freezes, and we just stare at each other for a while... I fire my gun into the air trying to drive it away but it keeps staring at me... I take out my camera and take a picture of it and it keeps staring... I pick up a rock and throw it but it keeps staring... I keep throwing and finally hit it with a rock and it charges... covering the 20 yards between us in a few seconds...so I shoot it and it keeps coming, and I shoot it again and it is still coming, so I shoot it a third time and it finally collapses" and "I was looking at something on the ground, bend over to pick it up, and a heavy weight slams into my back, throwing me to the ground... I feel something ripping into my back and get my knife out and in a panic start stabbing wildly... then I hear a cry and something runs into the woods dripping blood. Afterwards we find a tree that was right behind me with a convenient place for a cat to be sitting and decided it had lept on me from there." Both of those are paraphrases of actual first hand reports.

Hunting is different. There, the cat will grab as close to the head as it can and shake, attempting to disable and kill the prey by destroying the spine/brain. These are grab-and-run attacks... the prey will be dragged away from its herd and killed as quickly as possible so there is less chance of losing the kill. This sort of attack is usually done against smaller animals and human children. A group of potential targets will not prevent attacks but only one prey animal will be grabbed in a given attack (assuming one cat). If you attempt to retain the prey the cat will think you are another predator trying to steal its kill. Examples of this are "we were loading our boat onto the trailer and Jimmy was walking around the edge of the parking lot. There were lots of people around so we didn't think there was any danger. Next thing we know a cougar had jimmy's head in its mouth and was shaking him violently and dragging him into the woods. We chased after and grabbed Jimmy's legs, and the cat kept dragging. We started hitting the cat with sticks and it attacked Jimmy's father, biting him in the leg and scratching him across the face. After someone hit the cat with a thrown rock it ran into the woods and was shot 2 hours later less than 100 yards from where the attack took place. Jimmy's skull was punctured in four places, part of his face removed, one of his arms broken, and he suffered internal injuries." or "Bicyclist's body was found under bushes approximately 6 yards from paved bicycle trail. Bicycle was found lying in grass along side bicycle trail."

In this case, as I understand it (and I don't claim to understand cougars at all, I'm just reporting what I've heard and read) the main threat would be to the dogs unless she tries to defend them (in which case she'd better defend by killing the cat because otherwise the cat is going to mess her up...) ... the cat isn't going to rip through killing three dogs and a human, it's going to take one dog at a time. And once it has killed one she can probably call animal control and have a bunch of people out there hunting down the cat and killing it for her. The other possibility is a territorial defense attack, which is more likely to be aimed at her. The dogs might actually help prevent that though... and from what I've read a handgun won't prevent it except by killing the cat. Pepper spray or the like might actually be a better attack because it asserts her claim to the territory without killing the animal.
 
I only know one guy who has successfully hunted and killed a cougar. He used a .22 magnum. The cat tore up a dog when it hit the ground, before dying.

.357 should do.

Nothing wrong with killing an agressive cougar. Whatever reason the cat has for attacking doesn't matter. This lady has the right to take care of her dogs and herself. Good for you for helping her out.
 
Would suggest not running alone for sure. Dogs as running partners would be great too as long as its not some little thing and the more the merrier. As for a weapon. If the user cannot control it they are basically without a weapon so a .44 mag for someone 5"2"" is a bit much I would think. A knife is a good option as one usually does not know that the cat is there until its on you. As far as a gun I would use a 9mm with some of those personal defense rounds. Its hard to suggest a handgun though as one doesn't know this person ability with a firearm.

Let me say this again. Tell her. Do not. I repeat. Do not run alone ever again. Make sure when she runs that there is another person with her and that the dogs are there too.
 
Pepper spray or the like might actually be a better attack because it asserts her claim to the territory without killing the animal.
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I dont think I would take my chances with a 200+lb cat intent on eating me armed with only a can of pepper spray :eek: . I doubt I would even use it as a plan a, with a gun as plan b. Cats move quick as we all know and time wasted with a can of pepper spray when a big cat is charging you is time never to be returned. If its private property and open carry is the case then a large revolver in a open top holster chambered in as big a caliber as she can handle. 500 Smith&Wesson magnum anyone?
 
Pepper spray to the right animal is like the pepper you put on your supper just seasoning for the meal soon to be eaten.Dont know if cougers are one of them or not. I have heard of ppl using small bore handguns like 22lr 22mag and 218 beeand doing a good job killing them. But also once while rabbit hunting my father and I got into an arguement with one over whose rabbits I was carring. After one round of 410 and two of 20 gauge it was still coming. But the 357 dad had ended the debate.







one shot one kill
 
I never said only pepper spray... makes sense to have a gun on her for quite a few reasons... not least that her dogs may attack some kid and not respond to her command. Poorly trained ex-fight dogs do that no matter how lovably incontinent they appear to her. But pepper spray might be a better choice for the not-intentionally-lethal turf confrontation.

The problem is that animals are unpredictable. Let's say that a cougar wanders onto her path (like in the first story I related) and is just staring at her... what is it going to do next? It isn't obviously agressive.

The first story I related was something I read on the 'net a long time ago (when I was researching the subject because I had been spending my lunch hours walking around this local park and one time I drove past it and it was all taped of with a bunch of vehicles parked around... because the bicycle story (fourth story) had just happened there.

After a bit of searching... here it is, complete: http://yarchive.net/gun/cougar.html

Note he drove one off but the other attacked. Perhaps with pepper spray instead of rocks both would've left.

500S&W would be a lousy choice in this case.

Personally I'm about two clicks away from getting a Taurus Tracker 44mag... which I think would be a good choice for this (practice with handloaded 44 special) and as a general woods gun... but if my fear was specifically cougars in my woods I wouldn't disregard non-lethal weapons that work with their instinctual behaviors. Turf wars are about proving who can inflict the most pain, and pepper spray does a good job of that. It is totally useless if they are hunting though.
 
Let me say this again. Tell her. Do not. I repeat. Do not run alone ever again. Make sure when she runs that there is another person with her and that the dogs are there too.
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My wife has run many ultradistance races, and she loves hiking and training on trails, mostly in areas that don't see a lot of human activity. If she was not willing to train or race alone, there is no way she could have pursued her passion. She trained in areas with huntable populations of black bear and mountain lion. Maybe it is because they are hunted and, therefore, wild, that she never has encountered a mountain lion (a friend of hers did without incident while training alone), and all the black bears she has seen have left the area much faster than she did. While such activity certainly is not risk free, and should be undertaken cautiously and armed, it certainly is safer than when we lived in New Orleans.
 
This is a safety issue. Is a race more important than life. Are you willing to lose your wife because exercising safety precautions is to much trouble for you or her.

People need to understand that with a cougar or any other large predator you may be tonights dinner and it will be too late when they attack. That is why having more than one person running is important. The cat/predator is more likely not to attack a group of people and dogs vs a lone runner.
Remember these animals don't know its wrong to eat people. So when running or walking in their area be advised that you my be tonights special.
 
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