Cougar kills young man in California

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Old Hobo

Old Hobo

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Many of you have read or heard about the mountain lion attack on two brothers who were hunting for shed deer antlers in the foothills of northern California (El Dorado County). One of the two brothers was killed. Seems neither was armed with a firearm.

A couple of questions:

In California, is there any legal mechanism by which one can carry a loaded firearm within state or federal forests for the purpose of protection against dangerous animals?

Secondly, were you allowed to do so, what firearm would you carry to defend yourself against a BIG kitty, a.k.a. mountain lion?

Me, I'd be carrying a pump or auto 12 ga. loaded with buckshot, possibly a slug or two in the tube just in case. One thing to consider, however, is that Kitty could be on top of you before you could bring a long-gun into use. If you have a friend as your six-o'clock and it is you who gets attacked, what what firearm would you want your backup to have on them to shoot the monster off of you? Buckshot may just not be the ticket in the latter scenario.

A person shouldn't be out there alone -- most folk would agree. These two brothers had split up and had gone separate directions to look for antlers. Me, I'm thinking that this was one enormous boo-boo. Without a firearm, what could they have done in an attack scenario? I think bear spray would simply aggravate a big cat.

I'm interested in your opinions.

Thanx much for any and all replies!

Here's one of many news articles about this week's fatal cougar attack:

www.cbsnews.com

Man killed, brother injured in mountain lion attack in Northern California foothills

A 21-year-old man was killed and his brother was injured in a mountain lion attack in a remote area of Northern California's El Dorado County Saturday, authorities said.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

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armoredman said:
IIRC, which I might not, I believe it is illegal to kill an endangered animal in CA even if it is attacking you.
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I believe you can legally kill one in self defense as it is not endangered, but a protected non-game species. You will be put thru the wringer tho to prove true self defense.

As far as the OP's question, cougars are relatively thin skinned and most any handgun/firearm you would carry for self defense from two legged predators would work.
 
Old Hobo said:
Many of you have read or heard about the mountain lion attack on two brothers who were hunting for shed deer antlers in the foothills of northern California (El Dorado County). One of the two brothers was killed. Seems neither was armed with a firearm.

A couple of questions:

In California, is there any legal mechanism by which one can carry a loaded firearm within state or federal forests for the purpose of protection against dangerous animals?

Secondly, were you allowed to do so, what firearm would you carry to defend yourself against a BIG kitty, a.k.a. mountain lion?

Me, I'd be carrying a pump or auto 12 ga. loaded with buckshot, possibly a slug or two in the tube just in case. One thing to consider, however, is that Kitty could be on top of you before you could bring a long-gun into use. If you have a friend as your six-o'clock and it is you who gets attacked, what what firearm would you want your backup to have on them to shoot the monster off of you? Buckshot may just not be the ticket in the latter scenario.

A person shouldn't be out there alone -- most folk would agree. These two brothers had split up and had gone separate directions to look for antlers. Me, I'm thinking that this was one enormous boo-boo. Without a firearm, what could they have done in an attack scenario? I think bear spray would simply aggravate a big cat.

I'm interested in your opinions.

Thanx much for any and all replies!

Here's one of many news articles about this week's fatal cougar attack:

www.cbsnews.com

Man killed, brother injured in mountain lion attack in Northern California foothills

A 21-year-old man was killed and his brother was injured in a mountain lion attack in a remote area of Northern California's El Dorado County Saturday, authorities said.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

..............................................................................................................................................................................................
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It’s very rare for sure. Carrying a long gun around the mountains is a lot of weight and bulk to deal with. For lions almost any handgun would work. Unfortunately getting killed in the mountains happens. You’re much more likely to die from falls, injuries, dehydration, etc…. A small first aid kit, extra clothing, emergency shelter, food, fire kit, and yes a capable handgun with extra ammo goes with me basically everywhere.
 
Obviously this is not an everyday occurrence. From the videos I’ve seen, if you really thought you would have to defend against a big cat, you better open carrying your most familiar carry pistol. One that you regularly practice quick draw and shoot. I would probably choose a G19.
 
Old Hobo said:
In California, is there any legal mechanism by which one can carry a loaded firearm within state or federal forests for the purpose of protection against dangerous animals?
Click to expand...
Practically no.

From CA Department of Parks and Recreation FAQ page under "Weapons" - https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=937#collapse3Seven

Can I carry a concealed weapon in a state park if I have a Carrying Concealed Weapon (CCW) permit?​
​
Possibly yes. The carrying and possession of firearms in California’s state parks is generally prohibited and is only allowed per Title 14 of the California Code of Regulations (CCR), Section 4313.​
​
Exceptions to this regulation are granted in the California Penal Code Section 25900 pertaining to law enforcement and retired law enforcement personnel, and PC Section 26010 for citizens with Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) permits. However, any restrictions placed on the CCW by the issuing agency would also be applicable in California’s state parks. For example, if the CCW is only valid in the CCW holder’s city of residence or county, it would not be valid in a state park unit located outside the city or county of the holder. Some CCWs also prohibit carrying in “parks” and this would include state park lands, if that is the case.​

​

From CCR Section - https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=21301

4305. Animals.​
​
(a) Protection. No person shall molest, hunt, disturb, harm, feed, touch, tease, or spotlight any kind of animal ...​
(b) No person shall injure, trap, take, net, poison, or kill, any kind of animal ...​
​
California State Park Laws were established to protect the park resources ... All sections are misdemeanors which carry a maximum punishment of 90 days in jail and/or $1,000 fine.​

Old Hobo said:
what firearm would you carry to defend yourself against a BIG kitty, a.k.a. mountain lion?
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Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, just a random layperson posting on THR. Following is my opinion only based on my personal experience.

In my 20s, I solo hiked and camped all over CA state and federal forests, parks and desert recreational/OHV areas, including John Muir trail areas and experienced seven bear encounters (None with mountain lion) and one with Lynx. I worked with a coworker whose husband was senior ranger at Western Divide ranger station in Springville, CA - https://www.nps.gov/seki/planyourvisit/mkdayhikesum.htm

When I talked to coworker's husband about guns in state/federal parks, he told me about "two legged" creature threats and recommended I carry a gun and deal with any weapons charge/fine than being robbed/attacked/killed. As to "four legged" animal threats like bear and mountain lion, he said most pistol calibers would not be effective against thick bear hide and by the time I saw mountain lion, it would be too late (But they made effective noise makers against wildlife). I considered 10mm Glock but since I had 45ACP Glock 21 and 30, I chose to carry smaller Glock 30 when I had safety concerns hiking/camping in state/federal forest/parks.

I always carried multiple firearms to shoot when going to desert/OHV areas around Mojave/Redrock Canyon/4x4 trails and whenever I encountered rangers while shooting, they "personally" affirmed it was good idea to be armed in remote areas where I was "on my own" and encouraged target practice against "two legged" dangerous animals.

Old Hobo said:
Me, I'd be carrying a pump or auto 12 ga
Click to expand...
When I was going shooting in the desert while riding 4x4/dune buggy/dirt bikes/quads, I carried pump shotgun, semi-auto rifles and pistols.

Old Hobo said:
A person shouldn't be out there alone -- most folk would agree.

I'm interested in your opinions.
Click to expand...
Growing up, parents were big into hiking and camping (Mom was into rock climbing in her younger years) and I lived at REI. I considered myself a "naturalist", a person who wanted to experience nature, enjoyed nature and did whatever I could to keep it clean (Pack in, pack out). I joined High School hiking club and learned the dangers of being out in nature from my parents, hiking club and fellow off-roaders first hand experience.

I have been out in nature "alone" many times all my life. If I was in predator country that was wooded so I could not see far away, I made noise while hiking (Clanging pots/spoon) to let my presence known to bears/mountain lions so as to not surprise them and kept Glock 30 close by to make noise (Not shoot at them).

When I had seven bear encounters (Once with two cubs and momma bear size of Chewbacca ... Yeah, I nearly crapped my pants), I did not make eye contact and stayed still to not pose a threat and they all sniffed around me (Momma bear came bad mouth odor close sniffing) and moved on. Bears are incredibly strong and will move a small tree like a whip while back scratching and can scale steep hill like nothing. And no, humans cannot outrun bears. I always kept food tossed over a tall branch with rope/Paracord or locked in bear proof lockers. One night, a bear was pissed good smelling food was locked up in the metal box and nosed hard into the tent for like 10-15 minutes and looking at terrified eyes of my wife (Then 21 year old girlfriend) while clutching hard on Glock 30, I so wished I had my SLR-95 or NHM-91 inside the tent.

In contrast, If I saw mountain lion, I would wave my arms, yell and make a lot of noise. And if mountain lion would walk towards me (Intending attack), I would shoot around the mountain lion to scare it off but would not hesitate to start punching holes because I prefer my body parts without teeth marks.

Retired, wife and I live in rural bear country and mountain lions occasionally attack chickens or domestic animals at the base of hills. Thankfully, our acreage is away from hills and surrounded by multiple acreage parcels with people who have multiple dogs. While we sleep with our three dogs, they are quite alert joining bark fest of neighboring dogs to chase away wild animals, mostly deer/elk wanting to eat berries/fruit off bushes/trees (Sometimes followed by gun fire ... Yes, people shoot on their property around me and EVERYONE IS OK with that).

When I go shooting in the BLM mountains usually alone, I will fire off one round before setting up table, chair etc. and have scared off bears running. Thankfully, there are many hunters in the area and as soon as bears hear gun shot, they start running. I have not had a mountain lion encounter but our son/girlfriend who live at the base of hills, have seen the aftermath of mountain lion attacks of chickens/domestic animals. And believe me, home owners in those areas are well armed against mountain lions.
 
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Where are I live, the Big Bend of Texas, we have a lot of lions; sightings are not common but also not rare. We have a large enough population that local ranchers have active trapping programs to keep them in check. Seems every 10-15 years someone will have an encounter but I've not heard of any fatal events in the 40 years I've lived here. I worry more about Africanized bees which have killed a few people and several dogs over the years.
 
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While walking two small dogs when a lion was known to be in the neighborhood (very rare) I carried a snubby 44 special with Gold Dot hollow points. Never saw the cat.
 
It’s the Hungry Time. Spring ain’t sprung and animals are hungry. Big cats are more of a concern than black bear in my opinion. If you can’t carry a firearm, a big knife is better than a sharp stick. If you can carry a firearm, big holes exsanguinate faster than smaller holes.
 
Cougars be fast. And humans be slow. I never encountered a cat that I was aware of close enough to be a threat. The key word is 'aware'. Twice, once in Arizona and once in California I had to double back on a trail only to find fresh cat tracks across the trail I had passed only minutes before.
 
jar said:
Cougars be fast. And humans be slow. I never encountered a cat that I was aware of close enough to be a threat. The key word is 'aware'. Twice, once in Arizona and once in California I had to double back on a trail only to find fresh cat tracks across the trail I had passed only minutes before.
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Yeah, cats are quiet. I've lived here since 1979 and saw my first panther last year. I followed a sound into the brush and must have walked right past the panther. I came out on another trail. It followed me out and crossed that trail about 20 feet away. Didn't make a sound. Panther probably watched me the whole time.

Makes me wonder how many times that happened and I was unaware.

I'm thankful we don't have those great big mountain lions here like you do out west.
 
A firearm might make someone feel better but realistically it's not going to save you from a mountain lion attack since they attack from ambush from behind.

The best defense against an ambush predator whether animal or human is to pay attention and have good situational awareness. If you do that then you probably won't be attacked at all.
 
I had my first F2F encounter with a mountain lion at age 10 in 1986. My family has been directly dealing with them since, and they are a key component of our neighborhood threat matrix. It's a pretty good rush to be monitoring a cat in your flashlight beam over the sights of your drawn sidearm.
 
shafter said:
A firearm might make someone feel better but realistically it's not going to save you from a mountain lion attack since they attack from ambush from behind.
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That made me chuckle...

If he were still alive, my father would love to "discuss" your statement, specifically with regards to his 1997 incident where his .357 saved the day and prevented an attack.
 
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Californian here - who spends a lot of time in the woods, has a CCW, and carries with mountain lions in mind.

First, California CCW holders are generally allowed to carry in such places. Yes, if there are restrictions on the permit, then those restrictions apply everywhere - but such exceptions are, well, exceptions.

Next, the statistics are misleading. It is true that mountain lions attacks are generally rare - but most Americans don't share space with mountain lions. Those of us who live and play in mountain lion country are used to hearing about attacks. I live literally on the border of a wilderness park in SoCal which has had multiple attacks over the past few decades. Now, the odds are still greatly in our favor, regardless of how much time we spend wandering around those places, but the same could be said for almost anyone contemplating self-defense.

As for the way mountain lions attack people, there have been many, many instances where a firearm could have been (or actually was) useful. Among other things, it seems that many attacks on humans come from injured or ill lions, which do not behave as they normally would. The most recent attack in our local wilderness park, for example, involved a lion which stalked a three year old out in the open, grabbed him by the neck/head, and tried to drag him off. The child's father started throwing things at the cat, which dropped the kid and ran up a tree. So #1, not typical lion behavior, and #2, a situation which could easily have developed into something where gunfire would have been useful.

As for guns/cartridges, sure, I'd love to have a shotgun. Or a .577 Nitro, for that matter. But one thing that will almost certainly get you into trouble in a national - let alone California state - park is walking around with such a thing. Realistically, you'll need a concealed handgun, and realistically, mountain lions aren't very big or tough. I'd suggest the same piece you normally carry - I wouldn't be thrilled with a .380, .32, etc. for mountain lions, but then, I don't like them for criminals either. I personally choose a .357 most of the time, and a 10mm on occasion.

<edit> And yes, killing a mountain lion in California is going to cause a ruckus. However, the law does not require you to be killed and eaten in lieu of self-defense. In fact, it is even possible to legally kill them in defense of livestock and/or pets. https://abcnews.go.com/US/1st-mount...er-california-law-officials/story?id=68933725

On the whole, it is a very good idea not to shoot mountain lions, criminals, or anything else in California if you have any other options. Chances are you will be dragged through the courts and the media and your life will be left in shambles, even after the killing is found legally justified. In my own mind, it is a matter of being killed right now vs. spending my next few years in legal hell: if I can avoid both, I will.
 
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I read a statement from the young men's family this morning . The reason they didn't have guns with them was that it was opening day of youth turkey season and they didn't want to bring attention to themselves . They are both avid outdoorsmen , hunters and fishermen .The cat did not ambush them , they came upon it and tried to bluff it off by raising their arms to look bigger , yelling and throwing stuff at it , but it attacked the younger brother , who survived . the older brother tried to fight it off of him and it got him by the neck . The other brother tried again to fight it off , but wasn't able to .He had to move to be able to get cell service to call for help , and came back with their vehicle to try again to get it away , but the cat and his brother were gone . After help came they sent the young man to the hospital and when they found the other brother the cat was crouched behind him and they couldn't get a safe clear shot , so they shot to scare it off and recovered the mans remains , then got more help . The cat was found treed about a hundred yards off and killed .


Sad deal . Two good young men who tried to do everything right , and it just didn't work out for them . I didn't see anything about the condition of the cat . To me this seems like a predatory attack , since the cat didn't want to leave the body . Its pretty ironic that California quit sport hunting cougar's right when they started hunting people . I hear they kill as many "problem animals" now as they were getting through hunting when they had it , anyway .
 
codytrucker said:
I read a statement from the young men's family this morning . The reason they didn't have guns with them was that it was opening day of youth turkey season and they didn't want to bring attention to themselves . They are both avid outdoorsmen , hunters and fishermen .The cat did not ambush them , they came upon it and tried to bluff it off by raising their arms to look bigger , yelling and throwing stuff at it , but it attacked the younger brother , who survived . the older brother tried to fight it off of him and it got him by the neck . The other brother tried again to fight it off , but wasn't able to .He had to move to be able to get cell service to call for help , and came back with their vehicle to try again to get it away , but the cat and his brother were gone . After help came they sent the young man to the hospital and when they found the other brother the cat was crouched behind him and they couldn't get a safe clear shot , so they shot to scare it off and recovered the mans remains , then got more help . The cat was found treed about a hundred yards off and killed .


Sad deal . Two good young men who tried to do everything right , and it just didn't work out for them . I didn't see anything about the condition of the cat . To me this seems like a predatory attack , since the cat didn't want to leave the body . Its pretty ironic that California quit sport hunting cougar's right when they started hunting people . I hear they kill as many "problem animals" now as they were getting through hunting when they had it , anyway .
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I wonder if the firearms available to them were only long guns. This is another data point promoting discrete carry of a sidearm, by whatever mechanism is appropriate.
 
.455_Hunter said:
I wonder if the firearms available to them were only long guns. This is another data point promoting discrete carry of a sidearm, by whatever mechanism is appropriate.
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The older was 21 , and the younger 18 . I would think they could legally carry a handgun if they had one , but California is a different place then it was when I left there over 30 years ago .
 
I’m reminded of the old, perhaps tired, but still true adage “better be judged by 12 than carried by 6.” Realistically a .38spl or 9mm is excellent for dealing with threats in the woods, whether they’re drug growers, hungry kitties, rabid raccoons, etc. I think concealed is the operative principle here. We’d all love a 3” howitzer when push comes to shove, but a handgun will probably do just as well.
 
LiveLife said:
And now, blowing all the way to Texas. :oops:
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And a lot of it blowing past Texas all the way to Florida. Generally the ones who appreciate the good things that have been happening in Florida over the past 6 years or so. People are recognizing good governance and flocking to it from the places where they've been shown how quickly things can go seriously sideways.
 
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