This policy may be in response to a series of off duty NYPD cop involved shootings where the cop was drunk. It does not seem like it is all that invasive. If you expect the city to defend your off duty actions, you should at least be sober.
Crazy guy stabs people in NY - off-duty cop shoots him
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Mr. Designer
Member
Glenn Beck had Ted Nuggent on to talk about this. If available, I'll post the transcript later.
Unbelievable, but does not surprise me. I hope they both recover. The weakest of the herd (67 year old female with a cane and neck brace) is attacked and the rest of the herd just takes off like a hyena attacking an old antelope. I realize talk is cheap; I just hope I have the courage if I am ever in that situation armed or not. I prefer armed though.
40SW
Member
"I saw him hit her at least 10 times. She was screaming and crawling along the street and people were running away.
People running away. Great!!, what a nation we live in. So we went from a frontier spirit of self reliance and being a good samaritan to a full government dependance. Nice !!(sarcasm). Kudos for the cop for doing his job and I commend him for it, but damn!!!!!!, people running away like children!! I wonder if this sort of thing would happen in Boise, Austin, or Tallahassee, probably not.
Lesson learned. Increase CWP provisions, lower crime, increase citizen participation. NYC. Never will I venture there.
People running away. Great!!, what a nation we live in. So we went from a frontier spirit of self reliance and being a good samaritan to a full government dependance. Nice !!(sarcasm). Kudos for the cop for doing his job and I commend him for it, but damn!!!!!!, people running away like children!! I wonder if this sort of thing would happen in Boise, Austin, or Tallahassee, probably not.
Lesson learned. Increase CWP provisions, lower crime, increase citizen participation. NYC. Never will I venture there.
Harley Quinn
Member
This is something that makes sense to a lot of folks I'd think.
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John Brunner's 1968 science fiction novel Stand on Zanzibar, which describes a society that is so overcrowded that people running amok (called muckers) are so common everyone arms themselves, which only exacerbates the problem.
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The thing is at one time they sent these folks to an island and they never returned to society, now we release them back from whence they came.
Survival and placing yourself in danger are foolish by most standards.
You would hope that you would be able to help, but the simple situation is if you don't have the tools you should not try to do the job.
Police are not executioners as a general rule. It is definitly a 2 edged problem we have in our society. If we all had the ability to carry guns it would only create a worse society many feel.
Guess taking away the guns when the cowboys came into town worked back then now we are wanting more folks to carry them.
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John Brunner's 1968 science fiction novel Stand on Zanzibar, which describes a society that is so overcrowded that people running amok (called muckers) are so common everyone arms themselves, which only exacerbates the problem.
**
The thing is at one time they sent these folks to an island and they never returned to society, now we release them back from whence they came.
Survival and placing yourself in danger are foolish by most standards.
You would hope that you would be able to help, but the simple situation is if you don't have the tools you should not try to do the job.
Police are not executioners as a general rule. It is definitly a 2 edged problem we have in our society. If we all had the ability to carry guns it would only create a worse society many feel.
Guess taking away the guns when the cowboys came into town worked back then now we are wanting more folks to carry them.
I live in NYC, I do feel those cowardly people that ran should have at least tried to distract the pyscho somehow, I know I would've. Also, the NY Post reported he was shot in the stomach, fell down and got up immediately and advanced towards the officer, Chin should have given him the ol' 2 to the chest right then and there.
40SW
Member
I am assuming that it was a 9mm 124gr. Speer Gold Dot that did the job. Aren't NYC cops issued Glock 19s? I am not sure if offduty carry approved lists differ in NYC? ,but if it was a 9mm, it apparantly worked ,(with a followup ).
40SW
Member
The argument could be made more specifically regarding the bullet and not the caliber. Was it a 124gr. Speer Gold Dot?
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
One could make the argument that it all comes to shot placement.
Gut shots don't generally do well, no matter the ammo used.
40SW
Member
I agree, stomach shots are not the optimum shot placement. ,but do nypd offduty carry with the Glock 26 permit a deviation in ammunition with respect to a choice by the officer, or is it strictly 124gr. Speer Gold Dots, interesting in knowing what was used.
TwitchALot
Member
camslam said:
I completely agree with this sentiment. In my opinion, CCW holders should hold themselves to a higher standard. How can we claim that CCW holders deter crime, and that guns can make for a safe and free society, when at the same time, we're essentially saying, "I wouldn't protect anyone but my family." We're saying that guns in the hands of responsible, trained, law-abiding citizens deter crime while we're saying that we wouldn't use them to stop a crime unless it happened to us, or a loved one! How can we expect, for example, someone to have stopped the VT shooting if they had been armed, when we're saying, "I wouldn't have done it"? I don't think it's fair to expect other people to jump up and risk their lives when one isn't willing to do the same.
Let me be clear- everyone should be able to make up their own mind about the matter and decide for themselves whether they would intervene or not. But a part of me thinks that in an ideal community, we should look out for each other, not just to protect our rights, but our lives as well.
I think there is a big difference between refusing to help another in trouble, and protecting your own family first.
Your primary duty is to your family, not a stranger. If you die trying to save some crazy old lady on her way to get her dog blessed, how will that help your family?
Your primary duty is to your family, not a stranger. If you die trying to save some crazy old lady on her way to get her dog blessed, how will that help your family?
wheelgunslinger
Member
{Insert Outrage Here}
I have to say though, in a crowded street, if I had to shoot a psycho I'd probably go for COM too. Stomach may not be the optimum target, but it gives the least chance of shoot through or miss.
At least no one took video and put it on YouTube as she was being murdered.
Cowards.
I'll save you the rant.
[Insert Outrage Here]:banghead:
Yep. I'm embarrassed for you. That is simply cowardice hiding behind the skirt of parenting.
I have to say though, in a crowded street, if I had to shoot a psycho I'd probably go for COM too. Stomach may not be the optimum target, but it gives the least chance of shoot through or miss.
At least no one took video and put it on YouTube as she was being murdered.
Cowards.
I'll save you the rant.
[Insert Outrage Here]:banghead:
I'm embarrassed for you. You claim family is the most important thing, but want your kids to see their parent walk away from helping and elderly person being knifed to death instead of leading by example and having the sack to stop the violence against an innocent person by risking your own?
Yep. I'm embarrassed for you. That is simply cowardice hiding behind the skirt of parenting.
Flynt
Member
Ilbob, I'm disappointed in your comment
When did the victim become a "crazy old lady." That's pretty cold and hostile for someone who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. What kind of society would you have us create? One in which we act only based on narrow selfishness? In such a society, who would come to your rescue if you were under attack?
When did the victim become a "crazy old lady." That's pretty cold and hostile for someone who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. What kind of society would you have us create? One in which we act only based on narrow selfishness? In such a society, who would come to your rescue if you were under attack?
Harley Quinn
Member
Well it boils down to a person of Catholic faith and a cancer victim also, going to church IMHO...If she is crazy then lets start calling those who pray and seek Gods help similar
Lets not digress into what I see is not a valid reason for not helping if you have the ability to help. If you can not help, so be it.
mek42
Member
I hold a NY State CCW. It is not valid in NYC. It is illegal for me to possess a handgun in NYC except locked, separate from ammunition and I am travelling through NYC without stopping in NYC - not even for a potty break.
The below quote is an excerpt of the NY State Police Pistol Permit FAQ:
It is therefore not worth my time or, more importantly, the close to $400 required to attempt to obtain a NYC CCW as I would be denied (with absolutely no refund of my substantial monetary contribution to the NYPD).
If I was there, I would have retreated to a safe location, say 25 - 50 yards from the knife assailant and called 911. I am not trained in unarmed combat techniques and, frankly, even if I was, I'm not going to employ them against a crazy guy with a knife in a place where the people have decided that only the police can protect them.
On the NYPD Pistol Permit application information site, it seems to be the case that only business related carry permits are issued and even then, there is no provision for off duty carry (for people like armed security personnel). Thus, there likely was no legal CCW other than the off-duty cop present.
It appears theoretically possible for individuals to obtain possess permits for handguns (a possess permit is also required for long arms in NYC) but one would probably be facing a long prison term for taking a shot at the guy either from a nearby apartment or by bringing the weapon out to the street to take the shot. The only thing that would prevent charges from being filed and a conviction granted of at least weapons related charges (much less assault with a deadly weapon) would be political considerations if there was still a vast showing of public support for your actions in 6 months to a year by the time the court date arrived.
I am irritated by all of the people here ranting that someone should have done something. How many of you have, while unarmed, attacked a knife wielding obviously crazy man using hand-to-hand techniques? How many of you have gone to prison because you drew an illegal CCW in defense of some random crime victim (and thus lost all firearm ownership abilities)? I hope that these comments are made out of ignorance of what the laws are in NYC.
The below quote is an excerpt of the NY State Police Pistol Permit FAQ:
It is therefore not worth my time or, more importantly, the close to $400 required to attempt to obtain a NYC CCW as I would be denied (with absolutely no refund of my substantial monetary contribution to the NYPD).
If I was there, I would have retreated to a safe location, say 25 - 50 yards from the knife assailant and called 911. I am not trained in unarmed combat techniques and, frankly, even if I was, I'm not going to employ them against a crazy guy with a knife in a place where the people have decided that only the police can protect them.
On the NYPD Pistol Permit application information site, it seems to be the case that only business related carry permits are issued and even then, there is no provision for off duty carry (for people like armed security personnel). Thus, there likely was no legal CCW other than the off-duty cop present.
It appears theoretically possible for individuals to obtain possess permits for handguns (a possess permit is also required for long arms in NYC) but one would probably be facing a long prison term for taking a shot at the guy either from a nearby apartment or by bringing the weapon out to the street to take the shot. The only thing that would prevent charges from being filed and a conviction granted of at least weapons related charges (much less assault with a deadly weapon) would be political considerations if there was still a vast showing of public support for your actions in 6 months to a year by the time the court date arrived.
I am irritated by all of the people here ranting that someone should have done something. How many of you have, while unarmed, attacked a knife wielding obviously crazy man using hand-to-hand techniques? How many of you have gone to prison because you drew an illegal CCW in defense of some random crime victim (and thus lost all firearm ownership abilities)? I hope that these comments are made out of ignorance of what the laws are in NYC.
TwitchALot
Member
il said:
I was referring to this part:
We have debated several times on this forum whether or not to engage a threat. There are several posters, more than I can believe, that have stated:
-"I'll be a good witness or call 911."
-"Unless it is a direct threat to me or my family, I'm not getting involved."
-"If it doesn't involve you, stay out of it."
Pigspitter
Member
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Okay, I know I'm going to get flamed for this and it is lowroad, but what caliber for crackhead?
gunsmith
member
my bro is a cop in NY State
he was NYPD now in a different jurisdiction, he is not allowed to carry if having a few beers.
Consequently, he hardly carries off duty.
"has Bloomburg sunk so low?" you betcha!
he was NYPD now in a different jurisdiction, he is not allowed to carry if having a few beers.
Consequently, he hardly carries off duty.
"has Bloomburg sunk so low?" you betcha!
Harley Quinn
Member
It has been shown that alcohol and fireams don't mix. When you throw in adrenaline dump you are talking bad news.
http://www.pursuitwatch.org/stories/adrenaline.htm
In some cities the worst case scenario is an officer involved shooting while he has been working undercover and drinking (allowed).
"Vice coppers" are a special breed for sure. Many departments don't allow them to be in that job classification for more then 2 years and they are well supervised, even then mishaps occur.
http://www.pursuitwatch.org/stories/adrenaline.htm
In some cities the worst case scenario is an officer involved shooting while he has been working undercover and drinking (allowed).
"Vice coppers" are a special breed for sure. Many departments don't allow them to be in that job classification for more then 2 years and they are well supervised, even then mishaps occur.
I don't have any kids, but I really doubt that any kid wants their father to go up unarmed against a lunatic with a bunch of butcher knives in the name of being a good example. If you think that being a good example means getting yourself sliced up, than feel free to go to the slicing. In a few weeks, everyone else will have forgotten the incident, and your kids will still have to grow up with no father.
Its not a good choice to have to make, but given the information available in the OP, it is maybe the best choice of all the bad ones available.
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