Crimping difficulty

[orpington]

I have never had so much trouble loading a round until today...

Loaded .44 S & W Special rounds and the die is to the point where it touches the shellholder and still does not properly crimp. The bullets spin in their cases and can be completely removed with little resistance.

Am using good quality (RCBS) 44 Special dies and a .430 diameter 180 grain Hornady bullet.

What gives and what should I do?

I bought the dies secondhand. Is it possible they were used enough such that the proper crimp does not occur?

 

[timothy75]

Had the same problem with 357 xtps. I believe the expander plug is too big for the smaller jacketed bullets. Measure it and order a size or two smaller. Good luck

 

[smovlov]

Th crimp does not hold the bullet in the case. Case neck tension holds the bullet.

Check to see if the bullet is held firmly without a crimp. If so then you're over crimping. If not you may be expanding the case neck too much or your sizing die is out of spec.

Are the dies for 44 special only or do they also work for 44 mag?

 

[gamestalker]

You either have bad brass, a broken carbide crimp ring, or an improperly adjusted die, and this last possible isn't probably likely, but a 44 mag only crimp die.

GS

 

[Mad Chemist]

Back way off the expander die. The bullets should not drop deep into the case mouth prior to seating. You need very minimal belling for jacketed bullets. I seriously doubt that there is anything wrong with your dies.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I think you need to start with the re-sizing die. Make sure it's touching the shell holder and if your using a progressive press, make sure it's screwed down until it touches, not by just eye balling it. Like Smovlov said, the neck tension holds the bullet and that happens before you get to the crimp stage.

Raise the crimp die up so it doesn't crimp at all and lower the seating stem to seat the bullet to check this. If the bullet still spins in the case then the re-sizing die is the problem. If it is tight than you have to be over crimping. If your trying to crimp before the bullet is seated to the crimp grove then you are crushing the bullet because the walls of the case has no where to go, so the die squeezes the side wall into the side of the bullet re-sizing the bullet.

Now, easy question, did you mic your bullets to see if they are the correct size?

 

[Walkalong]

the die is to the point where it touches the shellholder and still does not properly crimp. The bullets spin in their cases

It sounds like the crimp die is adjusted too far down, over crimping and ruining neck tension, if there was any. I have never had to have a crimp die or a seater/crimper screwed down that far.

Check out some crimps here.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469815&page=2

 

[orpington]

Right--but, originally, there was tension, and I was crushing cases as the mouth of the case was not wide enough for the bullet. Now, in order to not crush a case when seating a bullet, I had to adjust the expansion die downward. It seems to me that by crimping, it should hold the bullet in place???

 

[243winxb]

44 Special Brass with thin walls ?

originally, there was tension, adjustED the expansion die downward.

Measure the diameter of the expander. It should be .002" smaller* then bullet diameter. If expander is the correct diameter, the brass may have thin walls. Try a different brand of brass.

It seems to me that by crimping, it should hold the bullet in place???

NO, neck tension holds the bullet for the most part. Crimp a little bit.

 

[au_prospector]

Crushing cases is also a sign of too much crimp or crimping before the bullet is fully seated.

One crimps, so the bullet remains seated in place a split moment in time longer. This slight delay in the release of the bullet allows pressure to build and gives time for a uniform powder burn. One does not crimp to hold a bullet in place. There simply is too little bearing surface in a crimp to hold a bullet alone without causing big problems.

I crimp my .357 and my .44 MAGNUM loads.
I only crimp my .38 special loads enough to remove the bell from the case mouth. Since I only noticeably bell about 1/16th inch of my case, my .38 crimps are not really true crimps. My rounds hold in place with neck tension and I have not had any binding problems.

I do not load .44 spl cases, but if I did surely they do not need a heavy crimp.

 

[918v]

I am impressed.

 

[Potatohead]

That's always confused me a bit. Crimping is not used to hold the bullet in place but crimping is used to hold the bullet in place.

One does not crimp to hold a bullet in place

One crimps, so the bullet remains seated in place a split moment in time longer

 

[au_prospector]

read this carefully

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/reloadingdieinstructions.pdf

Instrux for RCBS dies. You may have carbide dies, be sure and follow the directions to get the feel for it, different instrux for steel and carbide dies. From there you can SLIGHTLY tweek this and that to suit your needs.

In particular look at page 5. It says DO NOT ADJUST THE SEATER DIE AGAINST THE SHELL HOLDER AS IT WILL DISTORT OR CRUSH THE CASES.

Step away take a breath and start over, you will get it and once you do you will see how easy it can be. Read the directions.

Also tell us what your load is. Depending on your powder you may or may not really need much crimpage.

 

[Potatohead]

Step away take a breath and start over,

I think that's pretty good advice.

 

[au_prospector]

Thats right potatoehead. A crimp cannot be used alone to hold a bullet in the case. It is used to delay release upon ignition.

 

[Potatohead]

All Ive ever crimped are 9mm and 380. It probably would make more sense to me had i ever loaded for revolver. But on the other hand, holding in place is holding in place, no?

 

[918v]

That's always confused me a bit. Crimping is not used to hold the bullet in place but crimping is used to hold the bullet in place.

Do you know how metallic cartridges are held together? It's through friction. You take a projectile of a certain diameter and squeeze it into a case approximately .003" smaller. The elasticity of the case creates friction and holds the bullet in place. Sometimes that friction is insufficient in certain high recoil firearms. The recoil acts like a kinetic bullet puller and causes the projectiles to pull out. So we crimp them in place. The mechanical lock of the crimp coupled with the friction of the case keep the rounds intact.

 

[fguffey]

holds the bullet in place.

Hold the bullet, I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get.


F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

holding in place is holding in place, no?

Yes. then last month I decided to repair a chuck, A 10" W. S. Chuck. It is still soaking, the Scroll should have 'just dropped out', it didn't and still 'doesn't. I decided it was not worth the effort so I dropped it face up on a 2" X 12", the scroll did not move, I plan to drill the face of the chuck and drive it out, it is still soaking.

F. Guffey

 

[Potatohead]

Do you know how metallic cartridges are held together? It's through friction. You take a projectile of a certain diameter and squeeze it into a case approximately .003" smaller. The elasticity of the case creates friction and holds the bullet in place. .

Right, And I get all that. But if anyone ever mentions crimping holding a bullet in place everyone jumps all over them, "NO NO NO NECK TENSION HOLDS THE BULLET IN PLACE".

So i guess it ends up being that crimping is not meant to hold the bullet in place but it can help to hold the bullet in place on some occasions.

 

[gamestalker]

What your describing sounds as though you have the crimp engaging too soon? Solution, place an empty case in the shell holder, no bullet, then run the ram to full extension, then thread your seating die in until you feel it contact the case mouth, back the ram down and thread the die down another 1/4 to 1/2 turn as needed. Then back out the seating plug all the way, place a bullet on the case mouth, run it up into the die all the way, then adjust the seating plug up to desired seating depth. Adjust / tweak crimp accordingly.

I'll bet this is your problem.

FYI, for consistent crimps, and to avoid crushing cases, trim all the brass to the same length, ream /chamfer, and crimp in the middle of the canelure.

GS

 

[918v]

So i guess it ends up being that crimping is not meant to hold the bullet in place but it can help to hold the bullet in place on some occasions.

Yes.

In other applications when you have bullet setback problems, as in semi-autos, and you increase crimp it will not help as evidenced by what the OP is seeing. Adding crimp only ruins case tension and the bullet spins in the case mouth.

But some people will still tell you to add more crimp. And they should be smacked upside the head.

 

[murf]

orpington,

is your die set for a 44 magnum, a 44 special, or both? should say on the die body.

if you have a 44mag only die set, this could be your problem.

murf

 

[orpington]

I think I know what the problem is. I have learned that you cannot expand the mouth too much and then expect the seating procedure with crimp to produce enough pressure to engage the bullet. My dies are .44 Special, but there is no expansion die. So I used my .44 Russian expansion die. I did not want to adjust it as it is set for my 44 Russian cases. As 44 Russian is a shorter case, the mouth would be expanded that much more. Since there was not enough tension, I had several bullets lodge in the barrel, as I guess there just was not enough pressure there without the tension. It was a 180 grain jacketed bullet with 7.3 grains SR-4756, a published load.

So, I think that was the problem???

Now, I loaded 6 to see how they do. I used the expansion die in 44 Russian just beyond the point where it touches the mouth. Case length is where it should be. Having said that, one round when seating the bullet was damaged, so my method is not foolproof. So I have 5 acceptable rounds and the bullets do not freely spin. Also, I tried a different powder, 2400, at 11.2 grains.

I have loaded MANY other rounds and not had anywhere near the number of problems I experienced today with this round????

 

[918v]

You can back out the expander die for the Special brass without loosening the lock ring. Just let the die jiggle.