Crimping difficulty

[gamestalker]

I love it "they should be smacked up side of the head".

GS

 

[Mad Chemist]

Too much expansion....... I win!!!!


OP, that tiny tidbit of info regarding your use of a .44 Russian expander set for .44 Russian cases would have made this thread 2 posts long instead of 2 pages.

.44 Russian is a shorter case. Of course you have to back out the expander die if it is set for .44 Russian case length.

 

[Airman Basic]

You can back out the expander die for the Special brass without loosening the lock ring. Just let the die jiggle.

Or put a spacer in between the lock ring and the press.

 

[fguffey]

I have 44 special dies, I have 44 special/44remington dies, I have 44 Remington Mag dies. Problem the 44 Remington mag seating/crimp die will not crimp a 44 special case.

My 44 special seating/crimping die will crimp and seat both the 44 special and 44 Remington case.

F. Guffey

 

[orpington]

Okay, Keep It Simple...

I think the problem lies with the load. I usually use the Lyman manual, but since I purchased Hornady bullets, I used the Hornady manual. I compared loads with the Lyman book, and the starting loads and maximum loads, everything being identical, are considerably less in the Hornady manual. The bullets were seated properly in the loads I created yesterday, etc., and the first round I fired was stuck 1/2 way out of a 4 inch barrel. There is no other logical explanation for this. I will try a more powerful load and see what happens.

I will also slug the barrel. Maybe the .430 diameter cast bullet is slightly too large for this bore???

 

[James2]

orpington: "My dies are .44 Special, but there is no expansion die."

What brand of dies?

Straight walled pistol dies are usually furnished with a 3 die set. The decapping die is also the inside expander and belling tool. Set it up so that it just gives you enough bell to start the bullets OK.

Now when setting up the seater/crimp die, you have the body of the die back far enough that you do not get a crimp. Now seat a bullet to the crimp ring. Now back out the seating punch and adjust the crimp. If you turn the die in with the ram full up, you will feel it hit the brass. This is where the crimp will start. Lower the ram and screw the die in just a bit, then run the ram up, then down and look at look at the crimp. Do it again until you get the crimp you want. Now set the lock on the die and with the ram full up lower the seating punch until it hits the bullet and set its lock ring. Now you are ready to load.

 

[James2]

Yes, when seating and crimping in the same operation, if the end of the casing hits the end of the crimp ring and then travels a bit more, it will expand the brass and loosen the bullet. So always adjust the end of the brass to be in the crimp ring, but not hitting the end of the crimp ring.

What holds the bullet in place? Tension in a properly sized casing and a properly made crimp work together to hold a bullet in place. Both together! :banghead:

 

[Walkalong]

I am not sure why neck tension and crimping are so misunderstood.

You need good neck tension to begin with, because a crimp alone is not enough to stop bullet set back or bullet creep, and to get good start pressure and a clean burn.

Then sometimes you need a proper crimp to add to the holding power of neck tension.

Neck tension is always necessary, with a proper crimp to compliment it when needed.

 

[orpington]

However, read my recent post. I have adequate seated bullets now, and still the problem. Crimping isn't necessary, but I am crimping. It is the extremely low starting load in the Hornady book that is the problem...

 

[Walkalong]

I am glad you got the crimp figured out.

It was a 180 grain jacketed bullet with 7.3 grains SR-4756, a published load.

So, I think that was the problem???

SR4756 is very position sensitive, and 7.3 Grs is not going to come close to filling the case. 180/185 Grs bullets don't give much resistance in .44 caliber, making it worse. IMO 4756 is not a good choice for .44 Spl, especially with a light bullet and a close to start charge. You can test the position sensitivity very easily to see if that was the cause of the stuck bullet.

Maybe the .430 diameter cast bullet is slightly too large for this bore???

Highly unlikely.

Also, I tried a different powder, 2400, at 11.2 grains.

2400 is not well suited to the low pressure of .44 Spl. Alliant does not list it all in .44 Spl.

You need a fast pistol powder for .44 Spl. A medium speed powder like Unique at most.

 

[Potatohead]

I am not sure why neck tension and crimping are so misunderstood.

Speaking from the newb point of view here,I myself was confused because of the way its termed sometimes I think. (surely it had nothing to do with me)

I think I automatically assumed that when people would say crimping doesnt hold the bullet in place, that meant well, I guess it isnt doing anything for tension. Why my brain makes that leap, who knows.

That added to "crimping is just to remove the bell" kind of made me think that's the only purpose it served. Had I started with revolver rounds I think I would have caught it straight away..

Ye old 38 special woulda been a good one to start on I think.

I understand now, I just like stretching it into "crimping doesnt hold the bullet in place, crimping holds the bullet in place" just for giggles.

So technically it should be "crimping doesnt hold the bullet in place, crimping helps to hold the bullet in place".

Admittedly It was definitely in the confusing issue category for a good long while though.

 

[MEHavey]

Question #1: Does the bullet have a crimp groove? (If not, and you are seating/crimping in one stroke,
you are driving the immediately-anchored bullet into the case and collapsing the forward case section as
the ram continues to move in final seating)

Question #2: If you back the seating die off the ram by a 1/2-turn (i.e., no crimp at all) and then seat to
proper OAL, is the bullet then held OK just by neck tension? (If so, see question #1 above and either
(a) Use a properly cannelured bullet, or...
(b) Crimp in a separate step from seating.

 

[Walkalong]

because of the way its termed sometimes I think.

No doubt.

"crimping is just to remove the bell"

Refers to straight walled auto calibers, where the "crimp" is really just removing the bell, or a hair more.

 

[buck460XVR]

Crimping isn't necessary, but I am crimping. It is the extremely low starting load in the Hornady book that is the problem...

Crimping is necessary for most revolver rounds, this is why bullets intended for them have cannelures. Most slow burning powders(like 2400) need a firm to heavy crimp to help initiate ignition and thorough combustion. Most slow powders like 2400 are also not a good mix with light for caliber(as 180 grainers in .44) bullets and light powder charges. One reason recipes are almost non-existent for this combo. Sounds like you are learning tho....and that's a good thing.

 

[orpington]

Despite the fact that 2400 is, supposedly, a poor choice, for a 180 grain or 200 grain bullet, in the Lyman book, it is in bold, meaning that the editors feel that this is the most accurate round...

 

[Walkalong]

Please let us know how it does. I just wish I had some 2400.

 

[buck460XVR]

Despite the fact that 2400 is, supposedly, a poor choice, for a 180 grain or 200 grain bullet, in the Lyman book, it is in bold, meaning that the editors feel that this is the most accurate round...

Reloading books are not Gospel, nor do they claim to work the same way everytime for every firearm. Nosler has info for H110 and W296 in their manual for .357 with a 158gr Jacketed bullet. The max load is lower for one, than the starting load for the other. It also shows that with 1.1 gr less (about 8%) the lower load gives 50 fps more than the higher load....and everyone knows H110/W296 are the exact same powder. What's that about, eh? Again, one will never know what works in their firearms. But I generally take a tad more stock in info from the powder companies when it comes down to what they feel is appropriate with their powder. But that's me. Again, why I seek three or more sources whenever I work up a new load. If one manual verifies what one or the other manuals claim, than I know it is not an exception. When I see one manual contradicting all the rest, I tend to wonder why.


What do you think the odds are Lyman crimped the bullet in the load given for accuracy?

 

[orpington]

Yes, I learned NOW that anytime I work up a load, I will see if it is published elsewhere and at least somewhat similar between books. I ended up loading these rounds with 180 grain bullets using 6.7 grains of Red Dot. I fired them today and it shoots well. I think this is what I will stick with.