Critter Country Monster Loads...

[Kaylee]

So here's the question...

At what point do all these monster-hot loads like .454, .47-whatsit, so forth and so on hit the point of diminishing returns? I mean, at some point with the hardcasts you're just going to punch straight through a critter end to end,right? So then what's the point of exiting at omagazillion FPS as opposed to just petering out the far side?

What practically am I gaining from a .454 as opposed to a .44 Mag as opposed to one of Buffalo Bore's "standard pressure" heavy 45 Colt loads?

Where's the practical optimum between "enough to crunch through to something important" and "oh my dear GOD I don't want to pull the trigger on this thing again?"

signed-

sick of getting my wrists thrown about by a .44 in South Central Alaska.

 

[Majic]

I think it falls into 3 catergories:
1) The shooters who want to add range to their Texas Heart shots.
2) The new hunters who seem to think the game is armored like a M1 Abrams and nothing short of depleted uranium will result in a kill.
3) The experienced shooter who just likes the big boomers

 

[envonge]

I shoot alot of hardcasts in my .44 mag and they are very fun to shoot.

http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/highresimage?saleitemid=513011

However when carrying in any areas with medium/large animals I would recommend nothing less than 400-500gr. hardcasts for the .500 S&W.

 

[jeepmor]

A guy from honest to God Big Bear country asks this question?

 

[campbell]

Generally the concern is penetration. To get good penetration, heavy hardcast bullets at moderate velocities are the ticket. Generally, 250-260 grain bullets at 1100-1400 fps are fine for lower 48 applications, but to push max penetration for big stuff in .44 or .45 you're going to want 300-350 grain bullets at the same velocities. Take a look at some results from Linebaugh seminars here and here. IMO the "sweet spot" are heavy .45 Colt loads. .45 Colt does the heavy loads at much lower pressure than the .44 mag. More comfortable to shoot, less "blasty". To do those loads in .45 Colt, you need a Ruger or a Freedom Arms.

Or, you could bump up to one of the big Linebaugh calibers like the .475, but that's overkill unless you're going hunting big coastal brown bears or African game with a handgun.

 

[campbell]

when carrying in any areas with medium/large animals I would recommend nothing less than 400-500gr. hardcasts for the .500 S&W.

Nothing less? What, is he running into grizzlies riding elephants?

 

[AStone]

Four numbers
& a dash:
.45-70.

Monster loads (BB) in a rifle
are far more controllable.

Marlin 1895 is next on my list.
(Barrel cut down to 18".
Prefer ... no, demand, pistol grip.)

Carry rifle
African-carry,
& all is good.

Moving to Alaska soon.
Gonna' be a dental floss tycoon ...

 

[Kaylee]

a guy from honest to God Big Bear Country?

Nope.. a gal who's a recent arrival who'd like to know where she can safely say "okay, that's enough.." rather than get tossed about by a big ol' hand cannon. I mean, ideally I'd like just a plain ol' SAA loaded a little hot but not so hot as to blow up the gun. Practically I realize that may not work out so well.

So where best to compromise? Would one of the heavy 45s do in an old Blackhawk or the like? And yeah, I realize longarms are better. Stuff sometimes happens.. heck, there's a place a half hour's walk from here marked "no hunting" but "warning, griz sighted" - and I imagine a longarm wouldn't be well received, at least not in plain sight.



Nem - when ya arriving?

 

[campbell]

So where best to compromise? Would one of the heavy 45s do in an old Blackhawk or the like?

If you handload, the Ruger Blackhawks, Bisleys, and old Vaqueros will handle the "Ruger only" .45 Colt loads in manuals like Hodgdon. For commercial ammo, those same guns will handle any of the off the shelf stuff like Doubletap, BuffaloBore, or Grizzly. Doubletap is usually the cheapest if you can't get the others locally.

Also worth checking out would be a Super Redhawk Alaskan in .454. More than strong enough for those +p .45 Colt, only weighs 41 oz, and that Hogue grip has a gel insert that make it very recoil friendly.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well you probably know my take on this Kaylee. I think you should stick with heavy hardcast loads in whatever cartridge you're fast and comfortable with. The speed of deployment and accuracy of the first shot matter far more than ft. lbs. A .44 Magnum with heavy hardcast slugs is more than enough. Though you may want to use a carbine for the better accuracy and more limited recoil. There's not much comparison between toting a .44 mag carbine and a big .500 or .454. The carbine is light and well balanced. It rides in scabbard, slung or however. The big boomer revolvers ride like bricks. If you carry them on the belt you'll need a hefty duty belt tightened way beyond comfort levels. A belly carry is the best option, but even then they feel pretty brickish after a long hike.

"no hunting" but "warning, griz sighted" - and I imagine a longarm wouldn't be well received, at least not in plain sight.

If it's for protection you can carry anything you want anywhere you want up here. The only exception is the national parks. If you are talking about Wrangell-St. Elias, call up the park HQ at
(907) 822-5234 and ask them. I don't think they're as nasty as the ones that run Denali. And I know there's subsistence hunting and not many tourists in that park, so they should let you pack for protection. Heck, there are parts of that park more remote than anything on the North Slope.

 

[461]

I'm not a grizzly slayer by any means but I've seen them and shot plenty of .44Mags and I'd say it could handle the task, I carried one when I spent a year up in Alaska and never felt under gunned.

The .45Colt can do the same things a .44 can but at lower pressure so the recoil pulse will be lower but not significantly, the super hotrod "Ruger Only" loads don't boost terminal performance as much as they boost recoil so I'd go moderate speed with the heavy cast loads and get the performance without the pain.

Best medicine is a 12ga. slug in my mind and you can carry one without looking like you're hunting and folks up there will know it's for "Bear Medicine". Another great option is the bear pepper spray, they really do hate it as one of our personnel found out when strolling the beach one day.

 

[AStone]

Nem - when ya arriving?

Despite my hopeful modification of a Zappa song, my arrival in AK is still a long ways off, unfortunately.

Many loose ends to tie up here before I go ...

But by then, you'll have found the perfect gun for your critter country monster loads,
and be able to educate all us in bound clueless pilgrims about it.

 

[Leanwolf]

In a fascinating book, FIFTY YEARS ON THE OLD FRONTIER, by James H. Cook, publ. Yale University Press, 1923, Cook states that he once shot a bull buffalo in the head at about 15 paces with his "Colt's .45." The bullet went completely through the bull's skull and into its neck, dropping the buffalo. This was around 1875.

Although he didn't mention the barrel length of his Colt's, I'd bet it was the 7 1/2" model. There is a picture of him in the book wearing a "Peacemaker" with that barrel length.

Cook didn't say what "load" he was using, but I imagine it was the standard .45 Colt black powder load for Colt's S.A. revolvers. A 255/260grains bullet at about 900+ FPS, give or take.

So, if you're carrying a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, loaded with a good hard cast bullet between 255 grains up to 300 grains at around 1,100 FPS or so, it would get the job done quite well, so long as you were accurate with your shooting.

(I carry Beartooth Bullet's 265 grains Gas Check LBT in my Blackhawk, out in the "critter country." Chrono'd at 1,150 FPS, I KNOW it will shoot through both shoulders of a spike elk. So, it works for me. )

L.W.

 

[Alphazulu6]

So for possible bear protection, why is no one mentioning a .357 Mag? If you are hiking you can get a really nice light revolver S&W titanium "five for sure". Of course its recoil is terrible but everyone loads the .38 +P for practice and the .357 mags for the real show. Not sure about the actual ballistics from it as the barrels are very short 2" or a little more? But check it out as I think you might find it very sufficient in the application you are speaking.

 

[eldon519]

I think you could probably kill a bear with a .357, but I don't think it would do very good of turning a charge or attack, and in Alaska, I wouldn't count my life on it.

It's kind of like the difference between the big game rifles they use in Africa and the stopping rifles. Sure you can kill an elephant with a .375 H&H, but it's really nice to have that guide there with you holding a shoulder-cannon should a wounded bull come busting through the brush at you. Since you won't have a guide there, I'd go with one of the bigger boys like the .44 mag or .45 Colt and up.

 

[Alphazulu6]

What ballistically does a .45 have on a .357 mag? I am not following the logic of a bear attack.... A full grown 1000lbs+ Alaskan Grizzly charging at full 25mph+ you are going to have a hard time stopping with ANY handgun (including a .500 S&W).

I was just speaking in terms of a most probable circumstance of meeting a black bear rummaging through the trash and deciding to take a nibble of your arm For the 1000lbs+ Grizzley charging.. ballistically speaking you are going to have to pack a .375 rifle if you are hanging at the local salmon rivers during this time of year.

 

[Cosmoline]

What ballistically does a .45 have on a .357 mag

Diameter and penetration. That said, I've long carried a .357 with 200 or 180 grain hardcasts as a backup handgun. The main thing is to have a proper long arm. Even a carbine with the right loads will do.

 

[Walkalong]

I vote for a stout revolver and heavy .45 Colts loads. If this won't get it done, I don't want to be there. I have no interest in shooting a .454 or a .475 etc.

 

[eldon519]

Well like Cosmoline said, it leaves a bigger hole, penetrates better, breaks bones better, has a better Taylor KO value, more energy, etc.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was talking about Ruger-level .45 Colt.

 

[AStone]

The main thing is to have a proper long arm. Even a carbine with the right loads will do.

Cosmo, where do you rank .45-70 in your list of effective long arm calibers?

 

[Wheeler44]

When I worked in the bush in Alaska (Southeast) I started out with a Remington pump in .30-06, that got heavy and awkward. Then I traded back and forth between a couple of large revolvers. Shoulder holster, side carry, experimental belly carry and as Cosmoline said,"they feel like a brick" they are uncomfortable and really just "a little too little " for close encounters of the bear turd kind. I eventually settled on an Ithaca 37 with a "dial a choke" turned to cylinder bore. With a shotgun strap it was easier to carry, accessable and I had a variety of loads available. I went with heavy birdshot in the chamber and alternating 00 buck and slugs after that. I usually took a dog or two for early warning and expected that any action would be in fairly close quarters. The underbrush where I lived was very thick and the terrain usually very steep.
Kaylee, most of the folks that lived where I did kinda expected you to carry some kind of protection in the bush. In fact we were a little leery of folks who went out without it. Big concern with being called to be on a search party and then tracking and killing a bear that had developed a taste for human. That's no joke, really it's pretty sobering. I hope you enjoy Alaska as much as I did. Happy trails, be safe.

 

[Tokugawa]

A pump shotgun with hard Brenneke slugs. And a good recoil pad and some high sights. Easy to carry. Or a 450 marlin lever gun. Short and light.Handy to carry.
Why bother with a handgun in AK? No one will think anything of someone walking around with a long gun. Exception might be in a tent or such, where it is hard to handle a rifle.
I experimented with some different straps and slings and so forth ,but eventually just carried by hand at the balance point. As long as it fits the hand, it works well- bolt guns are a bit thick at this location.

 

[gbran]

I use the Super Redhawk in .454. You don't have to run the hottest loads, but can if you want. I'll never buy the big S&W 500. It's just too physically big to pack around. My SRH is the biggest gun I can find that is still packable. A single action Ruger in 45 Colt with stout hardcast loads ought to be better than you think.

 

[Cosmoline]

Cosmo, where do you rank .45-70 in your list of effective long arm calibers?

It's solid, just as long as you get the right balance of power and controllability. For bear defense you probably want hardcast, but frankly some of them are more potent than they really need to be. For one thing you get hammered with massive recoil out of a guide gun size rifle. For another, the slug is going so fast that shattering is a risk at close range. I think a strong but not overwhelming load with a big heavy hardcast slug would be about ideal. And I'd prefer it out of a full size Marlin without that #@$ porting.

Why bother with a handgun in AK?

For the times you don't have your long gun on you or you can't get to it fast enough. The ballistic vulnerability of brown bears is constantly overrated, while their speed and agility is underrated. Esp. in the boreal forests during the sunny half of the year if you get attacked it's likely to happen *VERY* quickly. You'll hear some smashing underbrush and it will be on top of you. They don't lumber around like you see the hollywood bears doing or like when they're relaxed and fishing. If they're in attack mode they'll be moving very fast through tunnels in the undergrowth you may not even notice. They're like huge furry torpedoes. For example, in the McHugh attacks a decade ago the brown bear hit a woman so hard it broke her spine, and killed a man with a single swipe. So they don't really have to maul you. Your only real hope if the attack isn't just a bluff charge is to have a firearm up and pretty much ready to go, or locked and loaded in such a way that you can bring it into play in a few seconds. Traditionally slung rifles with nothing up the pipe are of limited value.

 

[AStone]

.45-70

It's solid, just as long as you get the right balance of power and controllability. For bear defense you probably want hardcast, but frankly some of them are more potent than they really need to be. ... I think a strong but not overwhelming load with a big heavy hardcast slug would be about ideal.

Sounds like reasonable advice to me. Thnx.
Glad to hear that the next rifle on my list
gets a thumbs up from an AK native.

And I'd prefer it out of a full size Marlin without that #@$ porting.

I won't buy a "guide gun" (1895G) because I don't want a straight stock.

Will get the 1895. May get it cut down a couple or 4 inches,
because I like carbine lengths, but won't get it ported.