Cup Tipped Pin Punches

[Johnm1]

I work on older top break revolvers. Mostly S&W and the pins have rounded ends and should be removed/installed with cup tipped pin punches. Currently I own conventional flat tipped pin punches. Trying to do things right I started looking for cup tipped pin punches and all I can find are sold by Brownells. They do come with a lifetime warranty and go down to approximately 1/16". They certainly aren't inexpensive and at $139 for a set of 8 I'd expect them to last. The overall rating is 3 out of 5 and there are quite a few very negative reviews. Most of the negative reviews reference issues driving tapered pins out of various locations on Sigs. The short pin getting jammed after starting the pin out. There is at least one review indicating that the cups are poorly shaped and the steel is too soft. These would be used mostly on S&W revolvers and maybe some other old firearms. I'll spend the money if these are good for my use. But I've bent my share of pin punches. I just don't want to pay a premium for future bent/broken pin punches.

If used properly is the Brownells cup tipped pin punch set the right set?

CUP TIP PUNCHES | Brownells

Eight concave “cupped” tip punches to precisely fit the round head pins found on Smith & Wesson handguns. Won’t flatten the pin top and ruin the gun’s looks. Made to the same specs as those used by the factory. Use 3mm punch on SIG handguns. Compl...

www.brownells.com

Secondary question - on the older S&W top breaks can someone confirm that the pins are not tapered. I can't measure a difference in diameter but that could be my ability to measure that closely or the fact that the pins I'm measuring are 140 years old.

Third question - assuming the pins are not tapered, I cannot measure a difference in the pin hole diameter from one side to the other. That would mean that a non-tapered pin could be driven out from either side without damage. Is that correct?

The reason I asked the third question is that I currently test each pin in each hole to see what end holds the pin in most securely and what direction that pin works best and always drive that pin in and out based on that information instead of following this rule:

Drive horizontally established pins (and dovetails) out from left to right and reinsert them from right to left. Some modern pins have no taper and then it doesn't matter. For vertically established pins drive them out from below to upwards and to reinsert them drive them from above downwards,

Consider that the pins and holes I'm working with are all over 100 years old and have 100 years of wear. I have resolved that I'll replace all of the pins (and screws) if I decide to re-nickel any of these guns.

 

[Bronco72]

I have always had good luck with Brownells customer service. Talk to them about returns just incase your not happy. On the price question : I believe in the adage of " Buy once cry once"
As to the quality of the item I cannot answer except that everything I have bought from Brownell has been great quality.
Do not know if this reply helps, but I just wanted to boost my post count , not

 

[NMexJim]

Brownells may be about the only source for these concave punches anymore.

CUP TIP PUNCHES | Brownells

Eight concave “cupped” tip punches to precisely fit the round head pins found on Smith & Wesson handguns. Won’t flatten the pin top and ruin the gun’s looks. Made to the same specs as those used by the factory. Use 3mm punch on SIG handguns. Compl...

www.brownells.com

You can get finishing nail punches from box stores that are concaved but may not be in the sizes you want. Plus they have a tapered shank. Hell for stout though.

Smith & Wesson Gunsmith's Punch Set 13-Piece Steel

Great selection of punches in two lengths. These steel punches feature knurled handles, set contains five 8" punches and eight 4" punches. Technical...

www.midwayusa.com

Midway has a set of S&W but the details are thin.

 

[a5werkes]

I have accumulated quite a few cup tipped punches and fabricated some as well.

Brownells has a fine tip set of punches for Beretta styled small diameter punches; the shafts are relatively too long for the diameter of usage, i.e. delicate and easy to bend.

Brownells used to sell (now discontinued) Top Gun Supply sourced 2-piece 3 mm cup pin punch for removing classic Sig 226/229 domed firing pin retaining pins; the pins with the splines on the left side were notoriously difficult to remove, having been installed with several thousand PSI hydraulic arbor press in one smooth move. The fundamental problem with both short starter punch / longer punch was the outside diameter of the punch tips had to much material to easily engage the dome pin head without marring the edges of the pin hole to start. You may see where I chamfered
the punch edges to mitigate pin marring.

I have found that using nail set punches, e.g. Starrett's with tape works the best for domed pins to start them to move, without creating a halo mark on the dome itself.

For a New England Pardner disassembly / re-assembly, I fabricated a brass set of cup tip punches for the various dome diameters, with tape works well to prevent marring (gunsmiths' scourge).

I think the essence is to use dome punches just get the pin moving for removal then switch to parallel pin punch; for installation use the dome punch all the way. Lubrication of the pins
can reduce the force required to install / remove them.

 

[4v50 Gary]

all comes to worse you can always use brass. I have and even used a brass cartridge case once. Brass marks are removed with gun solvent.

 

[a5werkes]

..........I have the Brownells 6=piece S&W cup tipped punches Set "C" and as you can see in this set, there isn't much of a "cup" to engage the pin domes.
The Beretta punch set is similar in having underwhelming dome configuration to the punch tips.

 

[a5werkes]

all comes to worse you can always use brass. I have and even used a brass cartridge case once. Brass marks are removed with gun solvent.

I too have resorted to covering a punch tip with a .22 cartridge. This sliding length punch set is pretty handy for small pins as the outer sleeve supports the small diameter punch along its length.

 

[Johnm1]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. It looks as if I'm going to be okay buying the ones from Brownells. I will look on Midway and see what I can find as well. I still have to make one. There are two pins on the older Smith and Wesson revolvers that are smaller than 1/16 of an inch. The cylinder stop retaining pin is exposed on both sides of the frame and has rounded ends. The rear sear retaining pin is hidden under the grips and does not have rounded ends. Right now I'm using a modified Jewelers screwdriver. But they are relatively soft and tend to bend. I should probably just shorten it as I really don't need the full length. How I would dish or cup that one I'm not really sure.

 

[beag_nut]

Have you looked at the website for McMaster Carr? They have LOTS of stuff, primarily for industrial use. It's my go-to if I ever have a problem finding something. I have bought from them since the 80's.

 

[a5werkes]

pins on the older Smith and Wesson revolvers that are smaller than 1/16 of an inch. ...........Right now I'm using a modified Jewelers screwdriver. But they are relatively soft and tend to bend. I should probably just shorten it as I really don't need the full length. How I would dish or cup that one I'm not really sure.

Well this afternoon I was tinkering with the notion of fabricating a short shaft 1/16" cup tip punch. I started with a 1/16" drill bit just to see if I could actually cup the end. Used a dremel diamond ball tip at low rpm with bit held in my bench top Palmgren angled-vise with lead jaw inserts. I just let the weight of the dremel rest on the tip of the drill bit and let the diamonds do the work. I was surprised it turned out pretty good IMO. Then advanced to using one of the Brownells' hardened 1/16" pins held by screw-in bushing to the punch shaft. Same approach to the tip with the dremel. The result too was pretty acceptable. Hardest part was trying to capture the tip results on camera using 15X Macro iPhone adapter. Applying some Formula 44/40 cold blue removed the light reflex photo distortions. I think attempting to cup a hardened punch tip smaller than 1/16" would be over my pay grade.

I am a McMaster-Carr fan boy and didn't recall them having any such cup tipped punches. Re-checked last night, negative ghost rider.

 

[Johnm1]

Well this afternoon I was tinkering with the notion of fabricating a short shaft 1/16" cup tip punch.

That is interesting. I may try to see if I can't do the same. I'll start with some brass punches I already have.

As far as smaller than 1/16" it may not be such an issue. Using the softer jewelers screwdriver (translate, cheap screwdrivers) I may not be doing as much damage as I think. I'm pretty sure that if I 'hone' a brass punch down to the size I need it may well not need to be cupped to prevent damage on such a small pin. Right now the pins are a mix of blue and nickel and not very presentable. But when it comes time to finish/refinish some of these revolvers it will make a difference on the larger pins.

None of the revolvers have pins that are 'stuck' or require massive pounding to get in or out.

Thanks!

 

[doubleh]

For smaller pins I use nail sets to get them started and then go to either a brass punch or one made from brazing rod. I have made a couple from machinest punches using my lathe and a carbide threading tool with the point ground to a slightly rounded shape. it requires tiny little cuts if the straight part of the punch is very long. The simplest thing is to just buy a set of good ones.

 

[a5werkes]

The Brownells' pin set I believe are ejector pin clones. I have yet to find a cup-tipped ejector rod pin, although the thru-hardened ejector pins might be starting point. On the alternative I have pondering using set screws with either cup tipped or brass tip to thread into a host punch. The small diameter cups on the set screws might be okay as finishing punches or starter punches, the brass tipped set screws would serve the same purpose with a very short shaft to perhaps avoid breaking a similar reduced size brass punch tip...just spitballing here but I might tinker with these ideas this weekend.