Curious as to why.....

[Sunray]

Collectors who are accepting refinishing are not collectors. Collectors don't want anything that is not in excellent condition, the closer to 'as issued' the better, or refinished.
The operative word being 'collectors'.
An untouched Schutzenbanger will always demand more money than any such firearm that has been refinished.

 

[Malamute]

I often wonder if gun collectors and trophy hunters don't possibly suffer from feelings of sexual inadequacy.

I often wonder why people try to ascribe some weird sexual association to things they dont like.

 

[B2Tall]

On the other hand...I received these two 5" S&W pre-model 10s (1948 mfg) today. Mechanically they are perfect, but something got on them that ruined the bluing. I got them cheap. I plan to get these re-blued.

Before and after on my pre-10. Obviously I replaced the grips with new, S&W factory ones.

 

[Baron_Null]

I often wonder why people try to ascribe some weird sexual association to things they dont like.

Perhaps it's because of some sort of sexual inadequacy

 

[SDGlock23]

I think it depends on the gun, but some might see refinishing the gun as there being something wrong with it, or should I say they might think it was mistreated/neglected.

 

[orionengnr]

Yet when folks do a total reconstruction on a rare mustang or similar, the value goes WAY up.

It may go up compared to its ratted-out current state, but it is till worth less than an original one in nice, unrestored (or as is often used in collector car circles, "unmolested".
There is another saying..."it is only original once."
Original is always more desireable.

 

[Ash]

I picked up an NDM-86 that had been refinished in a dip camo film for $1,200.00 in 2008.

You suppose I could have done that if it had not been so improved?

 

[bainter1212]

Collectors who are accepting refinishing are not collectors. Collectors don't want anything that is not in excellent condition, the closer to 'as issued' the better, or refinished.
The operative word being 'collectors'.
An untouched Schutzenbanger will always demand more money than any such firearm that has been refinished.

That is too broad of a statement.

Example: Not all collectors are looking for something pristine. Sometimes it is an oddity they are looking for.

I recently purchased two Israeli surplus FN Hi Powers. They are in very good shape, although arsenal refinished. I paid about $50 more apiece than other identical examples go for.
The reason? They have sequential serial numbers. In this case it was that fact alone which bumped the value over otherwise identical guns.

Now all I have to do is keep them together and unmolested.

 

[Ex]

Before and after on my pre-10. Obviously I replaced the grips with new, S&W factory ones.

I would call that a huge improvement and say without hesitation that the re-finish would make THAT gun more valuable to me. My 2 cents.

I've probly posted this here before, but another example of a refinish is on this. IMHO, it's value is greater than the original

 

[Jim K]

Except (maybe) for really rare and valuable guns, there is a point where a decent (or even an indecent) refinish job can only be an improvement. Those M&P revolvers really have nowhere to go but up, and they have no collector value or interest that would be lost. So, sez me, reblue and restore if possible, no further harm can be done to them.

But there is also a point where even a moderate restoration is not economically feasible. There would be no point in paying Turnbull a couple of thousand bucks to restore an RG-10 (although I don't think Turnbull would do that; it would be unethical).

Jim

 

[Ex]

Granted. Economic feasibility is an exception as are some historic cases... IE, I would not "restore" a classic civil war piece. That would be a travesty.

 

[B2Tall]

One must remember that "value" isn't always measured by rarity or originality. Often times it's measured in function. Each firearm really has to be judged individually and only a fanatical purist would believe that what I did to the Smith lessened its already-low value.

I often call my restorations "recycling". I enjoy taking a firearm of little monetary value to begin with (like the S&Ws pictured above) and turn them into nice looking, functioning firearms. I could probably sell that pre-10 for close to twice the pittance that I paid for it. It's accurate and functions perfectly.

Common military bolt-action rifles are another favorite of mine to "recycle". Ubiquitous WW2 Mosins, Lee-Enfields, and non-German Mausers are common and it's easy to find ones that are cosmetically lacking (and therefore cheaper than most) but mechanically sound. Doing a basic refinish job on the wood and bluing the metal turns a proverbial "rented mule" into something far more pleasing.

 

[B2Tall]

I would call that a huge improvement and say without hesitation that the re-finish would make THAT gun more valuable to me. My 2 cents.

I've probly posted this here before, but another example of a refinish is on this. IMHO, it's value is greater than the original

Thanks, and that revolver is stunning.

 

[Ash]

In military surplus rifles, value is significantly degraded with a refinish. Sure, there are those who mention Miltecs or that they will pay more for a refinished arm, but that pool is small and fickle. The only thing that degrades the value of such arms more than refinishing is sporterizing.

 

[Orion8472]

In my opinion, there are some collectors who would pay more for an original gun, even if anyone else would see it as "having a poor finish", but those who WOULD pay several thousand dollars for an original Colt Single Action Army, for example, wouldn't be the same as the average person who would probably rather have something that looked basically new. I don't know what Ex's pistol looked like before, but the way it looks now is quite superb and should bring more money...............SHOULD.

My Marlin39a wasn't going to bring much money how it sat. Too pitted from rust, and though they are sought after, . . . they really aren't that level of "collectable". The ones that are would be the straight stocked ones or the very old models still in great shape.

Now I do have a 1946 M44 that has decent bluing and decent wood. I don't think I would have it refinished. . . . only because it is one that doesn't have an import marking on it. I'm not sure what that means for an M44, but I see more value in that since [probably] most M44s and Mosins are import marked. Would my M44 bring more money than an M44 with an import mark? I don't know, but to me it is more valuable. That the bluing on the metal is nice, . . . even more valuable. Again,......to me.

 

[Rodentman]

I have a P7 which came like this:





I sent it to Robar for NP3 re-finishing:







I don't really know if I decreased the value, but I don't really care either. It was a German police trade in and there are thousands of them in the market. Sometimes you have to do what YOU want to do and not be driven solely by what something may be worth.

 

[Tirod]

Cars - or guns - one important fact is being missed.

If it's interesting, even rare, messing with it destroys the value. If it's a dirt common commodity, restoring it doesn't - so much.

Restore an old muscle car? There were literally hundreds of thousands built. Ford put out over 250,000 early Mustangs. As a class of car, common and cheap. But the first one to roll off the assembly line? Still on the street, and the owner has his own website documenting the differences. Shelby GT350? Rare exotica - for a Mustang. And certainly worth more than an identical factory model right next to it.

Restoring an old S&W or Colt? Go ahead, commodity gun which was issued by the tens of thousands to LEO's nationwide. But - the first .357 Magnum released to the public? #1? Would you be the one to earn the reputation for having it buffed and reblued, losing all the original surfacing machining marks, flats, edges, and blurring the stamps?

And yet there are stories about of those who have done it to a one in a thousand rifle, and it's nearly every week we see someone on American Roadshow who gets a reduced appraisal for doing it - at all. Do not scrape the original shellac off furniture over 100 years old - it will cost you 50% of it's value. On a piece dating to the 1700's it could amount to $40,000.

Some value New! and Shiny! more than they should. I've yet to hear them say they would have stuck to their decision and done it anyway, regardless of the loss of value. And those who think it's right are the ones who will be the victim.

So, it's really two different things - people who spend $5 million on a rare car - or gun - aren't like you and me. They know better. Those who spend $80,000 on a 69 Chevy 396, tho, it's just money. It's not "rare," despite the hype, they just spent the money because they had it - but likely never had the car. It's just an icon for them, not acquiring custodianship of a museum piece and sheltering it for the next generation.

Blue those Smiths, it's just fixing up a tool, like running steel wool on your Estwing hammer to keep it cleaned up. But run that same steel wool on Washington's saber he carried thru the Revolutionary War? I don't think anyone is recommending that.

And yet, ask the saber and sword collectors about it . . .

 

[B2Tall]

I have a P7 which came like this:

I sent it to Robar for NP3 re-finishing:

I don't really know if I decreased the value, but I don't really care either. It was a German police trade in and there are thousands of them in the market. Sometimes you have to do what YOU want to do and not be driven solely by what something may be worth.

Bingo. Looks great and if you're happy with it then that's all that matters.

 

[B2Tall]

In military surplus rifles, value is significantly degraded with a refinish. Sure, there are those who mention Miltecs or that they will pay more for a refinished arm, but that pool is small and fickle. The only thing that degrades the value of such arms more than refinishing is sporterizing.

How much "degrading" can be done to a rifle that's only worth under $200....and in some cases under $100??

I'm not talking about museum pieces.....I'd never do anything other than clean any weapon that had real monetary value...I'm talking about taking a common Mosin or Enfield that's in poor condition and turning it into a nice shooter that the common man (or woman) wouldn't be embarrassed to own.

I also refinish current firearms (i.e. no collector value) that are a little banged up and whose owner (usually me or a friend) want to make it look nice again. No firearm blasphemy there. No different than having a dent in your car's fender repaired.

 

[B2Tall]

A few more:

This one was from a guy that tried to Dremel off the original finish on a Bond Arms.


I bought it from him for $100 and turned it into this:


A Glock I did for a friend. The original finish was worn and scratched:


A Para that I picked up for $350 because it looked like garbage but was in great shape internally. Tungsten grey with some VZ grips added:

 

[oneounceload]

Nice work!

 

[Ash]

Mosins are $250 now. The only $100 ones are those which were refinished. It drops about half the value, sometimes more, as a general rule. Which Mosin is common and which is not? Can you tell? I saw a VKT M27 refinished. In original condition it would be a $500-$1,000 gun. In refinished, it is nothing more than a shooter. On gunbroker, you see duracoated M28/76's that never sell. They never move. Unrefinished ones go for $700 and up.

 

[B2Tall]

Mosins are $250 now. The only $100 ones are those which were refinished. It drops about half the value, sometimes more, as a general rule. Which Mosin is common and which is not? Can you tell? I saw a VKT M27 refinished. In original condition it would be a $500-$1,000 gun. In refinished, it is nothing more than a shooter. On gunbroker, you see duracoated M28/76's that never sell. They never move. Unrefinished ones go for $700 and up.

With all due respect you're way off base. You're taking instances involving rarer, high-value firearms and applying the results to every case. I've already stated that I'd never touch a rare weapon other than to clean it. There are plenty of nice original Mosins out there from surplus dealers for under $200 (Classic Firearms currently has grade-A 91/30s in stock for $189. SOG has them for $179). Lower-grade ones go for close to (or under) $100. Recently my friend and I picked up a couple of lower-grade Chinese Type-53s (a copy of the M44) for $89 each from SOG. After a good cleaning, touched up the bluing, and refinished the stocks they're nice looking pieces and great shooters. So tell me....how much of that $89 did we lose by restoring these rifles a bit?? According to you, my rifle is now worth only $45 (i.e. half of the original value as you stated above). Last year I bought a cosmetically poor 1952 Ishapore Lee-Enfield No.1 Mk. III for $169. It's now a very nice looking rifle and an excellent shooter. How much do you think I lost on that deal?? Is it now worth just $85 according to your blanket formula??

And yes, I do know the difference between a common Mosin and a rare one. A lot of people do. They're not all the same value. Not by a long shot.

 

[Ash]

Not off base. I have collected Mosins for 20 years. At my height, I had 40 Mosins, mostly Finns. I sold the collection off a few years back. And mine was paltry compared to the deep pocket collectors.

As to prices, did you forget shipping? $180 ($179.90 if you like) for a bottom line 91/30 with round receiver, tack on shipping and you have a $200+ rifle right there. There are NO lower grade 91/30s for less than that and your Classic price also tacks on $20 shipping. I'm WAY off with that one??? Not at all. Those $89 each cost more than $89 each with shipping if you have a C&R. Without a C&R tack on another $20 for transfer fee. So, it easily becomes a $140 rifle and most of the T53's are mismatched and already rated far lower to collectors as a result compared to matching.

$250
http://www.southernohiogun.com/longguns/c-r-longguns/russian-m1944-carbines-7-62x54-cal.html

$179.90
http://www.southernohiogun.com/longguns/c-r-longguns/russian-mn91-30-762x54.html

As to your cheap Mosins, the only thing left in that category are the rode hard, put away wet, carved on, mostly non-matching mix-master Albanian reject Chinese T53's.
$99.90 will get you a road hard without cleaning rod Type 53. And even then, you have to pay shipping.

But let's talk refinishing. DIY or professional? Professional refinishing jobs easily run $200 or more. Take a $400 Glock. Not many pay $600-$700 for one that has a refinished slide.

Let's talk recouping value. Your $89 plus $20 so really $109 but today would cost $120 mix-master unmatched bolt Albanian surplus carbine with refinished stock can be sold for how much? Sell one and tell us what you got.

And what is common? Do you REALLY know? 15 years ago, M39's cost $79 each and were dismissed as common. They now command more than $300 each. Refinished ones languish, though, as collectors ignore them. They are termed "shooters" now and valued only in their ability to shoot, which takes a significant discount over the value as a collector.

In the end, those $200 plus refurbs are viewed as refurbished (even if arsenal). Take a ratty-looking Spanish Civil War Mosin that isn't refinished and it will be twice as high. Or, more to the point, the arsenal job is half. Find an original condition Mosin (or Enfield) and compare that with one refinished.

Recently, a Mosin sold on Gunboards, a common Izhevsk, that had Egyptian markings painted on the stock for $330 shipped. Had that stock been refinished, how much would it have sold for?

Not off base at all.

 

[sharkman]

I've got a 1894 Winchester in .32-40, manufactured in 1901 that I sent to Doug Turnbull for restoration. Dad paid $100 back in the mid '70's, it was valued at $1000 when I inherited it. It looked ok for being over 100 years old. Blueing on the barrel good, nice patina on the receiver, good wood although the forearm was cracked. Minuses were corrosion on the buttplate and the magazine tube appeared to have been cleaned with steel wool.

So why did I send it for restoration? One look down the bore told the story. Totally pitted and cratered, no rifling left at the muzzle end. Wasn't obstructed so I shot it. At 25 yards half the bullets missed the target, the ones that hit keyholed all over. Not a shooter so it had little value for me other than emotional. So off it went to Turnbull. I contemplated just having the minimum work done but in the end went for a full restore.

Got it back about 3 weeks ago, it's beautiful of course. Shoots great. Did I ruin the value of it? I don't think so as now it's a shooter. Certainly worth more than $1000. If I sold it would I get a good return on what I paid for the restoration? Doubtful...But I will never sell it and I know that if my Dad could see it he would be pleased.