Custom 1911 build: need help

[Control]

I am in the process of ordering parts for a custom 1911. They are not cheap... Neither are the tools...

I cannot find good definitive awnsers to the following questions after much internet searching.

Any *expert* help would be greatly appreciated.


1) The frame will be a Caspian with a Caspian/Wilson beavertail grip safety cut.

http://www.caspianarms.com/html/receivers/options.html

The grip safety will be a Wilson High Ride Beavertail Grip Safety.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/a_beavertail_safeties.asp

I want to avoid the unsightly hole (to my eyes) that is exposed beneith the left side thumb safety that is common with high grip safeties. I went with the Wilson because its "less likely" that the hole will be visible over the Ed Brown grip safety. Beyond watching how I trim the frame to fit the safety, is there anything else I can do to avoid this hole?

2) I plan to get a ramped barrel. I have recieved some advice to just go with the standard barrel but I didn't get a reason why. Which is easiest to install: standard, Clark/Para cut, or Wilson/Nowlin cut? Are there any issues to shooting +P ammo out of a standard barrel? Any reason to perfer one ramped cut over another?

3) The slide will be a Bomar BMCS in a Bomar cut with a novak front sight.

http://www.caspianarms.com/html/slides/sightcuts.html

How tall of a Novak front should I order?


Thanks again.

 

[Sam38]

I will only reply to your second question.

A standard barrel is much easier to install. You will need a milling machine (or access to one) to put in a ramped barrel. The frame must be milled to accept the Para or Wilson ramp.

DVC,

Sam

 

[HSMITH]

Are you building this in 45?

Is there any way you can show a picture of the hole you want to avoid in question #1?

On the barrel I would go ramped for everything but 45 acp.

Depending on the mounting of the Bo-Mar and the caliber your front will be around .185" tall.

 

[Control]

Sam38: The frame will come with a ramped cut from Caspian.

Beyond the ramped cut, is there anything else I should be aware of on the relative difficulty in installing standard vs Clark/Para cut vs Wilson/Nowlin barrels?

HSSMITH: This will be a 45. Why do you perfer a standard barrel with 45s? I know the ramped barrels support higher pressures, but is there anything I am giving up (ease of installation, reliability, etc.) by going with a ramped barrel?


For a good example of the whole I wish to avoid, go to the following link:
http://www.americanhandgunner.com/Ftr0706/DUO4.jpg

If you look right below the thumb safety's cover you'll see the hole in the frame that is there so the safety can be removed. The whole is only visible when the safety is on. Again, I would prefer that my thumb safety cover this hole when in both the on and off position.

 

[XavierBreath]

Control,
Whether the hole is exposed rests on two factors........the position of the hole in the frame, and the size of the cover portion of the thumb safety. I have not used a Capsian frame, but Ed Brown thumb safeties have always covered the hole on my Colt frames, and even on my Springfields.

 

[Control]

XavierBreath:

Is the thumb safety in your example on or off. If its on, it would appear that when you turn it off, the cover poriton of the safety would extrude past the rear of the frame.

If its off (down), does the whole appear when you push it up to engage the safety?

In particular, I have read in Patrick Sweeneys book that the Brown *grip safety* is the worst when in comes to exposing the hole. Is that a brown grip safety I see on your example?

 

[XavierBreath]

Here is a photo of the same pistol finished. The grip safety has nothing to do with the hole being exposed. As I stated, the hole being exposed is a factor decided by:
1. the size of the hole.
2. the size of the cover on the thumb safety.

It is a Brown grip safety on this pistol.

Here is another one being built. Colt frame. Brown thumb safety. No hole. It's a Brown grip safety on this one too.



Feel free to check the 1911s on the page in my signature. Most use this combination. None have the hole exposed.

 

[Control]

Thanks Xavier. I checked out the 1911's of your site. You robbed the gun store that sold you that Gunsite National Match in hard chrome for $850.

A couple of counter points are listed below. These are not my opinions, just stuff that I have read or spoken with others about.

1) The Sweeney pistolsmithing book stated that the Ed Brown safety was the primary cause of making the whole visible. The logic is that the Ed Brown must be cut into the frame more. Due to this, the thumb safety must be trimmed so that it does not extrude past the frame when it is in the off position. The trimming of the thumb safety causes the hole to appear when the safety is on. Mr. Sweeney has a picture of a really nasty hole in his modified pistol. I don't know what frame he was using.

2) I cannot for the life of my find the post on the 1911 forum that discussed this, but here is a summary.

According to the poster, there are 3 kinds of safeties. Type a) is the Ed Brown and other similar designs. These are the most likely to show the hole. Type b) is the Wilson/Caspian design and it is not as high as the Ed Brown and therefore not as likely to show the hole. Type c) is the S&A type which is even lower and is therefore most likely not to show the hole.

3) I called and talked to a smith at Wilson Combat about their frames. The gentleman on the phone stated that the hole in there frames is spec and that they often show the hole when the safety is on because their safety is higher in the frame and this forces a trimming of the thumb safety.

Perhaps now it’s easier to understand where I get the notion that the grip safety depth in the frame determines how much of the whole will show. This is one reason my I decide to go with a Wilson grip safety. If it were not for the "hole issue" I would prefer the Brown for the lowest possible grip.

I can see your point about the position and size of the whole also being important. Given that Brown's and Wilson's guns often show the hole, I wonder if there is something different between where they cut the hole and where Colt does. Either that, or perhaps there is a difference in the amount and type of trimming that they do to both the frame and the thumb safety vs. what you do on your pistols.

Below is a link to a picture of the hole in Caspian's frame.
http://www.caspianarms.com/html/receivers/options.html

I tried to compare this picture to your guns but I can't say my eyeball has the precision to tell whether Colt and Caspian use the same hole position or not.

 

[HSMITH]

Control, I use standard barrels in 45's most of the time just due to the cost. It is cheaper, and works just as well, to use a standard barrel in a 45. 45 never even approaches the pressures needed to blow a case with good ammunition used in a barrel that was properly throated, so there isn't a big concern making me want to use a ramped barrel.

The fitting of a ramped barrel is a little more involved, and if the bed isn't cut right it isn't something you can fix with a file/scraper/stone like you can with an unramped barrel. If the bed is cut right it isn't much if any harder to install a ramped barrel.

Like XB, I use the Brown safeties on everything that isn't bone stock. I don't see the holes on my guns.

 

[45auto]

On my two Colt frames with EB beavertails, the hole does show slightly.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff admits to being hopelessly old fashion so his pistols look like the ones that John Browning designed.

But anyway, the “hole” you refer to is for the shaft on the safety lock (aka “manual safety”, or just “safety”) and it has to be where it is because it also positions and holds the grip safety. Browning was cleaver at doing such things.

Now as the pistol was designed the plate on the safety lock pretty well covers the hole. However when you build one of the New Age guns with a grip safety that allows the hand to sit higher, the frame has to be more rounded off in that area, and if the safety lock plate isn’t trimmed to match it will dig into your hand. In some cases it will be trimmed to the point where the plate is trimmed right up to the shaft, and when the safety is on you can see the edge of the hole.

How much of this may, or may not be visible depends on how much trimming and rounding of the back edge of the safety lock’s plate is necessary to work with the particular configuration you’ve created relative to the grip safety. If your intention is to get your hand up as high as possible you will probably have to put up with seeing a little part of that hole.

Unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world…

 

[Control]

I think it’s fair to say at this point that the visibility of the whole is dependent on many factors: position of the hole, size of the safety cover plate (trimmed if needed), and depth of the grip safety.

For me, I think I will go with a Wilson beavertail in order to minimize my chances of having a visible hole as it appears that the Ed Brown may or may not show the hole.

I looked into ramped barrels again and noted that several folks (including Wayne Novak) do NOT recommend a ramped barrel in single stack 45s due to feeding issues. The fully supported portion of the barrel needs a steeper ramp. This steep ramp does not appear to agree well with 45 bullets that sit low in a single stack magazine. Ramped barrels are only recommended for higher pressure rounds and they do feed OK from double stacked magazines or with smaller calibers then the 45. It’s just the single stack 45 that has issues.

Thanks to everyone for the input.

 

[Old Fuff]

I think it’s fair to say at this point that the visibility of the hole is dependent on many factors: position of the hole, size of the safety cover plate (trimmed if needed), and depth of the grip safety.

You can't change the size or position of the hole. Both were determinded back in 1910 just before Browning and Colt showed Uncle Sam their final prototype. The location of various holes in the frame may be the only thing left that's the same reguardless of what particular frame you buy. The rest you can play with to some degree.

 

[XavierBreath]

But anyway, the “hole” you refer to is for the shaft on the safety lock (aka “manual safety”, or just “safety”) and it has to be where it is because it also positions and holds the grip safety. Browning was cleaver at doing such things.

You can't change the size or position of the hole. Both were determinded back in 1910 just before Browning and Colt showed Uncle Sam their final prototype. The location of various holes in the frame may be the only thing left that's the same reguardless of what particular frame you buy.

Fuff,
The hole being discussed is not the pin hole for the thumb safety. The problem hole is the oblong hole which the lug of the thumb safety enters to contact the sear. This hole can be several different sizes and shapes. It is not uncommon to see this hole enlarged to facilitate poorly designed aftermarket parts on custom guns.


Here's another pic of the Brown grip safety on a Colt. The thumb safety this time is a Kings. No hole.

Here is a pic I lifted from Oleg that shows the hole. I am not sure, but this thumb safety looks suspiciously like a Wilson.

 

[Old Fuff]

Ah so...

Now I see what you mean. If you intend to get a Caspian frame I'd think a quick phone call to Gary Smith would get an answer to your question. Call (802) 472-6454. His frames are usually very close to spec.

In this case the hole isn't a hole, but rather a slot...

 

[jacII]

Control:
I just had a custom full size 1911 built by my local smith . Frame is Caspian, slide is a non-rollmarked Colt Series 80 and the barrel is a Clark ramped barrel. Fire control parts are EGW, everything else is Ed Brown. To date I have about 1000 rounds through the gun with no problems whatsoever. Since you are ordering your frame from Caspian you can order it already cut for either the Clark or Wilson ramped barrel . Although I think its more difficult to initially fit a ramped barrel, once done correctly it shouldn't be any less reliable than a non-ramped barrel.
Joe