Customize a Jungle Carbine?

[Leif]

Hello ... first time post, although I've read this board for some time now.

I recently acquired an original Enfield Jungle Carbine in a trade (1946 date, ex-Malaysian service). It's in very good condition as far as milsurps go, with matching numbers for all parts except for the magazine, and the rubber butt pad is a modern replacement. The finish is decent and the bore is excellent.

I probably shouldn't even be thinking of this, but like most people who tinker I can't leave well enough alone, so my thoughts have turned to modifying/customizing this rifle to a degree. I am considering ordering a Boyds Enfield sporter stock set to use in lieu of the military stock, that way I could install a Pachmayr pad and sling swivels (in normal positions) without modifying the original stock. Their website lists the set as being for the No. 4, but I imagine that it would fit the No. 5 as well (please correct me if I am wrong). If I did this, I would leave off the top handguard (which rattles a lot as it is now) and barrel bands to allow the barrel to cool more quickly. If anybody has experience with this type of project, or dealing with Boyds generally, your input would be much appreciated.

Now, that's not the particularly controversial part, as it's easily reversible. The other part of the project that I am contemplating is parkerizing the Jungle Carbine. I'm hesitant to do this because it's permanent and I don't want to 'bubba-ize' a milsurp if it's something that will be of value, or more appreciated by, a collector, which I am not. Has anybody parkerized or otherwise refinished the metal on a Jungle Carbine, or other Enfield model, and if so, what were your experiences?

I think that my long-winded point here is, should I do this to the carbine, or leave it for the collectors? I think that the whole project could be done for between $200 and $300, depending on how fancy I get with the stock and how much I pay somebody to do the parkerizing. I realize that if I ever decided to sell the gun, I probably would not make enough to cover the expense of any custom work, but am I throwing the proverbial 'pearls to swine' and really wasting my money by doing this?

Also, if anybody has pics of well-done custom Enfields, I'd appreciate seeing them.

Thanks in advance!

 

[MatthewVanitas]

If you shop around, you can get a decent used civvie boltgun, cut barrel to 16" or 18" and recrown, and then do whatever you want to it (shorten stock, refinish it with purple stain, slap on a Metallica sticker) and not feel guilty about ruining a collector piece.

Plus, whatever chambering you got the civvie boltgun in would be cheaper than .303 British, and have more reloading components available if you went that route.

In the modern day, sporterizing milsurps is generally false economy: by the time you spend "used deer rifle" money on it, you'll end up with a funky rifle that's no good to anybody, and the Curio and Relics demons will haunt you while you sleep. As hunting season ends, the pawnshops should fill up; get an old deer rifle and hack away.

-MV

 

[swingset]

Until not very long ago, original No5mkI JC's were in the $600 range for a matching, original example. Once all these malaysian imports came in, the prices came down a tad on garden variety No5's, but the nice ones are still worth a BUNCH to the right collector. They will, in short order, be that valuable or even moreso.

What do you think a sportered up No5 will be worth in 10 years? $200? Maybe.

What do you think an original No5 will be worth in 10 years? $500? $600? $700?

Your rifle, your choice, but I'd NEVER alter a matching piece of WWII history, even if it didn't ruin the value of the gun.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I just ran an $check out of idle curiousity:

NIB Stevens .308/30-06 boltrifles are going for $250 and down on www.gunbroker.com

Used Savage 110 rifles are going for around the same.

Actually, that reminds me: I need to check the Fish&Game website and find out when rifle season ends in Texas, go get me a cheapie deergun to make a rangetoy "tacticool" rifle.

You can probably find even better deals on used "store brand" good quality bolt rifles, any of which will probably make a better plinker/hunter than the Enfield.

-MV

 

[Leif]

Thanks for the responses so far!

There are some good points raised here. I've thought about going with the new route, and certainly, I could find a used bolt rifle for cheap and go to. However, the Enfield has some features that I really like that can't be had on modern production rifles, at least not without spending quite a lot of money for some major custom work. For example:

- machined for chargers/stripper clips

- a great aperture sight system, far and away better than that on most current production rifles

- 10 round capacity

Added to that, the action is smooth and the carbine is built like a tank - I don't worry about its reliability.

I probably should have explained my background and purposes for this project a little. Where I live, ranges are limited to 100 yards. I don't hunt (I've tried it, I just can't get into it). I really just want one general purpose, go-to, aperture-sighted centerfire rifle, as most of my recreational shooting is rimfire, shotgun, or handgun. While the easy route would be to get an SKS or .30-30 levergun, I've had both, with the result that I hated the SKS and really didn't get too excited about the Marlin 336.

So, thoughts?

Edit: the numbering and lettering on the receiver are very worn. It's possible to make out the model and armory (Fazakerly), and barely possible to make out the date. Does that affect matters at all?

 

[kfranz]

I really just want one general purpose, go-to, aperture-sighted centerfire rifle,

You've got that which you seek, no "need" to alter the finish, unless you want to.... :wink:

Maybe a better route for your tinkering desires would be to snap up a couple of M44's next time Century runs a cracked stock special. Likely could get a couple of rifles for less than a hundred bucks(not each)

 

[seeker_two]

I understand the feeling. I'm thinking of doing something along the same line, but I'm taking a different approach. Instead of using a pristine example like you have, I'm shopping around for a #4 SMLE that's already been sporterized. That way, I'm not devaluing a collector's piece, and I still get all the benfits of an Enfield for a lot cheaper than buying said collectable...

Just make sure to have it checked by a gunsmith first. Bubba has been known to go crazy with headspacing and sear stoning....

 

[ScottsGT]

Here's one that I Bubbaized about 5 years ago. Now I'm finding myself in a delimma where it is too long to swing around in our small hunting stands.



I thought about chopping the barrel down and recrowning, but I'd rather just sell it and buy me a Marlin .30-30 and scope the Marlin.
Believe it or not, I wrapped up about $400 in this one, not including the scope. I now wish I had left it all original, and refinished the wood and repainted it. This has been blued.
Keep yours original, or trade me, and I will! (BTW, Mines a .308)

 

[50caliber123]

I don't know about customizing a Jungle Carbine. I have one, and have been completely disapointed by it. It WILL NOT HOLD A ZERO! I have a shotgun-pattern at 50yrds instead of a grouping. The frontsight wings on the flashhider are bent, that might attribute to the problem, but I'm not sure. It's dated 1944, with all matching parts, even the magazine. Would anyone here know why it wanders? I would like to make it more accurate, but mounting a scope takes away the point for me, I like aperture sights.

 

[Detritus]

Would anyone here know why it wanders?

first check to make sure it still has the little steel sleeve that fits in the hole in the stock the King screw (the big one in front of the mag) passes through. it is a known thing that a No.4 or No.5 that is missing this part is unlikely to hold zero. with the king screw tightened down the sleeve bridges teh gap between the triggerguard assembly and the receiver, and provides a consistent i guess you;d call it bedding point.

the rest of the things that are supposed to cause "wandering zero" are as far as i know beyond normal means to fix, ie the lightening cuts in the receiver. but there is debate on whether those are really to blame.

 

[spooney]

I parkerized and refinished a stock on a Jungle Carbine I bought a couple of years ago, it looks good, shoots good, and is pretty fun to boot. I wasn't really worried about destroying any value as it was non-numbers matching and I don't sell any guns anyway. I have had a pretty good overall experience with it.

 

[.50DE]

I bought

these Ishapore Enfield's, they have been rebarreled to .308, were inexpensive, and fairly accurate.

 

[Leif]

ScottsGT, it looks like you refinished the metal on your Enfield. Did you, and if so, how?

Spooney, do you have any pics of your parkerized Jungle Carbine? Did you do the work yourself, or use a commercial vendor or gunsmith? If so, who and how was your experience with this?

My Jungle Carbine seems to hold zero acceptably well; of course, I've only put about 80 rounds through it so far. I think that one of the biggest problems that I have with the original configuration of the gun is the top forearm (which rattles and cannot be tightened down without locking the forward sling attachment in place, it seems) and the generally awkward sling attachment points, all of which can be fixed by replacing the stock, which is an easily reversible change. Refinishing the metal, that's another story.

Is there a durable yet reversible metal refinishing method for rifles, or is this an oxymoronic pipe dream at best?

 

[ScottsGT]

ScottsGT, it looks like you refinished the metal on your Enfield. Did you, and if so, how?

Is there a durable yet reversible metal refinishing method for rifles, or is this an oxymoronic pipe dream at best?

Yes, it has been blued. I lightly polished everything first, then the 'smith did a light brushing with a wheel before dipping in the tank.

Bluing can be removed easily with murtic acid. There are even milder acids, just not sure which ones they are. If I was going to restore one, I'd park it first, then paint it with one of the bake on paints. It will still be painted as an original, but the park will hold the paint better.

 

[FRIENDLY]

jungle carbine

They have always had a problem with the accuracy. it was a result of cutting away too much metal and when fired it flexed. apparently the Gibbs new rifles do not have this excess cutting and lightening and are reasonably accurate. also I believe you can now get them in .308 making ammo easier to obtain that .303 British

 

[DMK]

Nice little collection of Ishapore 2As 50DE.

JFI, I agree with Seeker_two. Your No.5 sounds like it's in exceptional condition. I'd leave it alone and find a sporterized or bubba'd No.4 to convert to a carbine. They are pretty common.

BTW, AIM Surplus has No.4 wood stock sets for cheaper than Boyds.

 

[spooney]

ScottsGT, it looks like you refinished the metal on your Enfield. Did you, and if so, how?

Spooney, do you have any pics of your parkerized Jungle Carbine? Did you do the work yourself, or use a commercial vendor or gunsmith? If so, who and how was your experience with this?

My Jungle Carbine seems to hold zero acceptably well; of course, I've only put about 80 rounds through it so far. I think that one of the biggest problems that I have with the original configuration of the gun is the top forearm (which rattles and cannot be tightened down without locking the forward sling attachment in place, it seems) and the generally awkward sling attachment points, all of which can be fixed by replacing the stock, which is an easily reversible change. Refinishing the metal, that's another story.

Is there a durable yet reversible metal refinishing method for rifles, or is this an oxymoronic pipe dream at best?

Don't have a picture, sorry, I just have never gotten around to it. I used the local gunsmith here in town and it was a good experience. Everything came out even and all one matte dark color it was basically exactly what I was looking for. I refinished the wood my self, it was dinged up so I sanded those out and then rubbed Red Mahogany stain on the wood followed by tung oil. It was very enjoyable and something I definatly look forward to doing again given the chance and the correct gun to do it to.

 

[swingset]

They have always had a problem with the accuracy. it was a result of cutting away too much metal and when fired it flexed. apparently the Gibbs new rifles do not have this excess cutting and lightening and are reasonably accurate. also I believe you can now get them in .308 making ammo easier to obtain that .303 British

That's up for debate. MOD did identify some rifles which exhibited "wandering zero", and they attributed it to the lightening cuts. But, other rifles shoot very well.

I have a '44 BSA Golden State Arms No5 that will shoot honest engine 1" groups....and it's not accurized beyond a new wood stock being put on it. My other No5 is a '45 Fazakerly that will shoot 2" groups as long as you care to squeeze the trigger.

A lot of Enfield experts think the MOD exaggerated the inaccuracy to speed along the adoption of the 280 (L1A1) repeater, in order to stay current with the rest of the European countries after WWII. I tend to believe that.

 

[Leif]

Well, thanks everybody for your replies - this was very helpful.

I think I'm leaning toward leaving this one as is and selling/trading it to somebody who appreciates its collector value more than me. That, and I'm finding .303 to be as scarce as the proverbial hen's teeth around here; .45-70 is easier to find (of course, I might not be looking in the right places too).

 

[m39fan]

Simple answer - sell me the original and pick up a used Gibbs carbine on Gunbroker or AuctionArms! I promise to tuck it into bed each night and tell it a bedtime story! Seriously, let a collector have a chance at it. You'll be happier and will make someone else happy as well!

Take Care,
Mike

 

[Leif]

m39fan, you interested? PM if so. I probably won't look to part with this until after the holidays.

 

[m39fan]

PM Sent.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[dm1333]

Look for ammo at Samco Global

I have had good luck looking online for .303B. If you guys are interested check out Specialinterestarms.com in Gardnerville, NV. I'm looking around for a beat to hell Enfield to have converted to 7.62x39 by these guys. I may also have them make up a new barrel for my M38 scout rifle project. If anybody has a line on an Enfield No. 4 with a poor bore let me know. Thanks.

 

[ken B]

I wnted a short lil rifle, and happened upon a Savage No4 (similar action to the No5) in a pawn, $50 out the door, that had already been cut down (so I couldn't salvage her) and complete with crude name carved in the cut up stock. so i had my 'smith matt reblue it, recut the crown and then i tracked down the stock set on Gunboards.com. makes a handy rifle for the one blind we have where the longest shot is 80 yards and it's a smallish blind.

I still have my other Enfields and Mosins in pristine condition, cause I'm a history freak and wouldn't dream of cutting one of those up, but it's just me.

bunch of 'thrown away projects' at the pawn shops/gun stores that folks have given up on, can sometimes get them for a song and a dance.

just my 2 cents

 

[Slingster]

Personally, I would never modify an original No. 5, given their relative scarcity. There are outfits that make No. 5-style rifles out of No. 4s. They won't have the lightening cuts and the barrels will be heavier, but otherwise will look like No. 5s and be less prone to wandering zero due to the heavier, stiffer barrels.

I made up a Scout-style rifle on one of those modified No. 4s, and after putting a Ching Ring scout scope base and Burris 2.75X Scout Scope on mine with no other modifications, It shot under 2 inches at 100 yards with Federal Classic 180-grain SPs, and its best performance was a 1.5 group at 100 yards with Greek XHP military ball.