Customs and Guns

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Sam1911

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Sam:
I had an interesting experience today. I found myself to be totally wrong about an assumption I'd made. :)eek: I know, right?)

I'd been reading Phillip Caputo's The Longest Road, about his Key West-to-Alaska road trip, and he'd mentioned in an off-hand way that among all the packed supplies and equipment, he'd brought along a .357 Magnum revolver.

Now Phil is a Vietnam-era Marine, turned writer and world traveler. He describes hunting trips he's taken, but devotes a lot of the book to exploring and expounding on the sorts of social issues that often mark a writer (in my limited experience) as unlikely to be greatly sympathetic with RKBA, or knowledgeable about gun rights concerns.

In another thread here, I casually mentioned the book and held him up as an example of the sort of gun-owner that doesn't really care about gun laws because he thinks they won't ever apply to him or matter to him, and pointed out how much trouble carrying that revolver around the country (and even Canada) could get him into.

Well, it seems I was mistaken. Totally wrong, in fact.

Quite suddenly and matter-of-factually, Caputo brings up the matter of the revolver, why he brought it along, the fact that he holds carry credentials from three states allowing him to carry it lawfully in 36 states, and then explains exactly how he handled the Canada matter.

So first off, thank you Mr. Caputo for presenting defensive gun ownership in such a law-abiding and respectable light!

Second, I'll relate what he found he could do about it, as I think most would find it interesting:

He called Canadian customs and asked if he could leave the gun with them and collect it on return. They told him no, and directed him to call the local Police in Sumas, WA where he was planning to cross.

Sumas PD also said no, BUT ... now get this ... they sent him to Bromley's IGA supermarket who would, for $10, keep his gun and ammo in safe keeping for up to one year!

In fact, looking at Bromley's site, they'll even ship the gun on to you at another port of entry if you aren't passing through Sumas again.

(Though they say they have to ship to an FFL, which raises questions about how an FFL transfers a handgun "back" to you in a state other than your home state.)

So, hats off to Mr. Caputo, and to Bromley's Market! :)
 
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That's very interesting! Leave it to the Canadians to be super accommodating! Eh friend?
 
First off, it's Sumas WA. Not Suma.... (Minor point..;))

I guess that Bromely's is acting like a bus station locker of a bank safety deposit box, although I would wonder about the legality of them actually taking physical possession, (i.e. gun in hand) might be considered as change of possession without benefit of FFL if the gun owner wasn't a WA resident. The shipping to a FFL at another border station is a real problem.
Once it gets into the "book", rules have to be followed to get it back out.

A while back I had a situation where I couldn't possess several handguns on a military base we were camping at . I had a choice of turning them into security or not staying there. Not wanting the security goons fiddling with them I went out to a local shop and submitted them for "repair and cleaning". The charge was nominal and they could return them to me in the same way a repair shop can return your gun from out of state with out going through a FFL. As this was years ago, I don't know if this is still legal.
 
I have for decades crossed into Ojinaga, Mex via Presidio, TX and there are several businesses in Presidio that will hold your weapon for you while you're in Mexico for the day. The one I go to is a furniture store next to the border that writes your name on a paper sack, in goes the gun, and then hands it back to you when you return. They close at 6:00 so you have to watch the time. Works for me.
 
now if only there were a business on the canada/mexico side that would rent you one for the day
 
First off, it's Sumas WA. Not Suma.... (Minor point..)
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Thanks, and fixed.

I guess that Bromely's is acting like a bus station locker of a bank safety deposit box, although I would wonder about the legality of them actually taking physical possession, (i.e. gun in hand) might be considered as change of possession without benefit of FFL if the gun owner wasn't a WA resident. The shipping to a FFL at another border station is a real problem.
Once it gets into the "book", rules have to be followed to get it back out.
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Yes, I have some serious questions about this.

1) If Bromley's does not hold an FFL, I don't see any lawful way for them to take possession (which IS a "transfer") of a firearm from a resident of another state beside WA.

2) If you tell Bromley's to ship your handgun to a dealer in Sherwood, ND because you're going to cross back at the border crossing there. You show up with your Pennsylvania driver's license and the dealer says what? Well, he says, "I can't transfer a handgun to anyone who's not a resident of this state." Or that's what he SHOULD say, by law. The best he can do, I think, is to send it on to an FFL in PA where I can legally transfer it back into my possession.

One way I see around this is that Bromley's (assuming they can lawfully take possession of your firearms in the first place) could help YOU ship them TO YOU, in the care of a gun shop. It wouldn't have to BE a gun shop, but that probably would save hassles. As long as Bromley's did not take possession of your gun and the gun shop in North Dakota DID NOT OPEN your package, that would be a legal shipment. But it would have to be arranged carefully ahead of time. ... And I'm not 100% sure if that gets the FFL off the hook for putting a gun in their bound book or not. It might sit there a month or 10. If they're audited, does the audit include a gun sitting in an unopened package addressed to "Sam1911, c/o This Here Gun Shop, Sherwood, ND?" If so, then they'd be in possession of a firearm they did not record and that's bad.

A while back I had a situation where I couldn't possess several handguns on a military base we were camping at . I had a choice of turning them into security or not staying there. Not wanting the security goons fiddling with them I went out to a local shop and submitted them for "repair and cleaning". The charge was nominal and they could return them to me in the same way a repair shop can return your gun from out of state with out going through a FFL. As this was years ago, I don't know if this is still legal.
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I don't really know for sure if that's legal or not. Maybe we can get the word from our legal eagles. (Yes, I know it is done. I don't know if it is lawful.)
 
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I have for decades crossed into Ojinaga, Mex via Presidio, TX and there are several businesses in Presidio that will hold your weapon for you while you're in Mexico for the day. The one I go to is a furniture store next to the border that writes your name on a paper sack, in goes the gun, and then hands it back to you when you return. They close at 6:00 so you have to watch the time. Works for me.
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As far as I can tell, this would be perfectly legal -- FOR TEXAS RESIDENTS. I don't think if someone from, say Nebraska or Mississippi or wherever did that, the shop would be acting within the law to take possession of that firearm.
 
The whole matter raises some interesting issues.

Giving someone your gun to store for you will be considered a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws. That's just what "transfer" means.


  1. Possession means:
    1 a : the act of having or taking into control...
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  2. Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):


  3. If you give possession of your gun for storage to someone who is a resident of the same State as you, it's an intrastate transfer and subject to applicable state law.

    • In many States private transfers between residents are lawful without formalities.

    • However, in some States private transfers require that certain hoops be jumped through.

  4. However, if you are not a resident of the same State as the person you leave your gun with, it becomes an interstate transfer and subject to federal law.

    • Let's look at the statutes:

      • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
        (a) It shall be unlawful—
        ...

        (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...
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      • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
        (a) It shall be unlawful—
        ...

        (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;
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    • Note carefully the words used in those statutes. Words like "transport", "receive", "transfer", "give", and "deliver" are all words that describe possession, not just ownership.

    • Violation of the federal interstate transfer laws can get the transferor and transferee up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine (plus a bonus of a lifetime loss of gun rights).

    • So is there no way for someone to store his gun in State other than his State of residence?

      • One possibility if someone wants to store his gun outside his State of residence and avoid possible problems from making an interstate transfer in violation of federal law, would be to arrange matters in a way that gives no one in the storage State access to it.

      • Therefore, he might rent a storage locker or safe deposit box to which he alone has a key. Or if he stores a gun with a person, he might keep his gun in locked cases, a locked cabinet or locked safe to which he alone keeps the key or combination.

      • This is not guaranteed, and I haven't seen any case law or ATF opinions on this. But it is consistent with ATF's instructions for shipping a gun to oneself in care of another person. Specifically ATF has said (emphasis added):
        6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?

        Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.​
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How does it work if you were to rent a safe deposit box? I've heard conflicting stories on if that's legal to store your own gun in a SDB you rent. It may be state related.
 
Malamute said:
How does it work if you were to rent a safe deposit box? I've heard conflicting stories on if that's legal to store your own gun in a SDB you rent. It may be state related.
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I'm not aware of any federal law on the subject. Whether or not there might be state law in a particular State I couldn't say without doing the research -- which I don't plan to do. It could also be a matter of contract between you and the bank.
 
Frank, thanks very much!

Any ideas on whether an FFL could hold an unopened package shipped from the owner, for pickup by the owner at a later date, without opening it up and taking that gun into their bound book?
 
Sam1911 said:
...Any ideas on whether an FFL could hold an unopened package shipped from the owner, for pickup by the owner at a later date, without opening it up and taking that gun into their bound book?
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I don't know as I sit here. I'll try to look into the question, but it might be a couple of days.

Also, even if it would be legal, I can imagine an FFL being reluctant to do it. An FFL has a lot of reasons to be conservative and to avoid doing anything that could even raise questions for the ATF -- especially if his business is his sole of primary livelihood.
 
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