Cylinder Reaming?

[tpelle]

In a thread that discussed chambered balls creeping under recoil http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7208474&postcount=23 makos goods posted a link to a company that sells reamers:

http://www.atlascuttingtools.com/categories/Reamers/

I understand (haven't measured mine yet) that chambers on Italian replica revolvers are commonly undersized with respect to the barrel bores. If so, the balls are swaged down to a dimension that is too small for best accuracy because they then pass into a larger diameter bore. This condition is remedied by swaging the cylinders to a dimension equal to or slightly larger than the barrel bore.

I am interested in looking into doing this, and have some questions for the experts here:

1. Can the cylinder bores and barrel bore be measured with a dial caliper as used for reloading?

2. When measuring the barrel, do you measure across the lands or the grooves?

3. To make this measurement, do you force a ball into, say, the barrel, force it all the way through (drive it with a brass rod or something), then measure the O.D. with calipers? I presume that you'd have to do something similar with the cylinder bores, but you'd have to drive the ball out of each chamber with a rod that would fit through the hole where the nipples are threaded in.

4. Is there a better way to make this measurement that someone can describe?

5. Atlas Cutting Tools sells numerous different types of reamers. What type is best for this application? Do you have to "go up in steps", or can you make the size jump in one operation?

6. Can these reamers be turned by hand, with, say, a tap handle, or do you have to use a power tool of some sort? If so, will a drill press do it?

Any other tips on this precess would be helpful?

Thanks in advance.

 

[tpelle]

Ohh, I found something. I did a google search and came up with this article:

http://www.gunblast.com/Brownells_Reamer.htm

The Brownells kit referred to in the article is here:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7700/sku=513-000-001/Product/REVOLVER_CYLINDER_THROATING_REAMER

It seems to be a little pricy, but it comes with a selection of pilots so maybe that offsets the price a little.

I have three pistols for which this tool my be appropriately used. I have two Pietta 1860 Army revolvers (.44 cap and ball, obviously), as well as an older Uberti Cattleman .45 LC cartridge revolver.

My questions now are this:

I understand that the .44 cap and ball pistols and the .45 LC should be the same barrel bore. Is this true?

Would this be the proper tool for use on all three?

 

[ClemBert]

FWIW, here's my $0.02 worth. Keep in mind, $0.02 doesn't buy much these days.

1. Can the cylinder bores and barrel bore be measured with a dial caliper as used for reloading?

First, I'd say that when it comes to the barrel I don't like to use the words "barrel bore" to describe the internal barrel measurements. Barrel bore is basically a generic term to describe "the hole" in the barrel. You'll find that depending on who you talk to or where you are the "barrel bore" can be either the lands or the grooves diameter measurement.

With regard to the question I would say that use of calipers could be difficult to find the exact measurement you are looking for. There are at least two reasons for this: (1) curvature of the internals of the barrel, (2) having an odd number of grooves/lands. Personally, I think pin gages offer the best/easiest way to determine the lands diameter of a barrel. From there, slugging the barrel to get the groove depth off of a lead slug then carefully applying that measurement to determine the groove diameter of the barrel.

2. When measuring the barrel, do you measure across the lands or the grooves?

You measure both. Depending on what it is you need to know about your barrel both measurements have their uses.

3. To make this measurement, do you force a ball into, say, the barrel, force it all the way through (drive it with a brass rod or something), then measure the O.D. with calipers? I presume that you'd have to do something similar with the cylinder bores, but you'd have to drive the ball out of each chamber with a rod that would fit through the hole where the nipples are threaded in.

I like to use a soft lead ball that is larger than the groove diameter or as close as possible to the groove diameter if you can't get one large enough. Using a rubber mallet or other suitable non-damaging tool drive the ball into the barrel. Use a wood dowel that is slightly smaller than the lands diameter to push that ball in a little deeper. Then, with a second wood dowel on the other side of the ball and sitting on a solid surface wack the first wood dowel such that both dowels are putting pressure on both sides of the soft lead ball. Effectively, you are going to deform the lead ball by squeezing it together such that the lead ball will fill the entire void of the groove diameter. Then, you'll just drive out the squished lead ball out of one side of the barrel. From there very gently make your measurements.

4. Is there a better way to make this measurement that someone can describe?

If you have an odd number of lands/grooves then using pin gages and then slugging the barrel and then using calibers. Most of my revolvers have an odd number of lands/grooves.

5. Atlas Cutting Tools sells numerous different types of reamers. What type is best for this application? Do you have to "go up in steps", or can you make the size jump in one operation?

Beats me. Last time I had the gunsmith do the work for me. I'm pretty sure he did not do it in multiple steps but it probably depends on how much material you are trying to take off.

6. Can these reamers be turned by hand, with, say, a tap handle, or do you have to use a power tool of some sort? If so, will a drill press do it?

Seems to me that you always want to use a T-handle.

 

[ClemBert]

BTW, you never precisely disclosed the firearm you are considering for this particular adventure in gunsmithing. It'd be helpful to understand the make/model of the revolver and if you have a conversion cylinder for it.

 

[arcticap]

THR member rifle has reamed quite a few C&B's and has probably posted the most about chamber reaming. Sifting through relevant threads and his posts should answer a lot of the questions that you have and more. He mentions to slug the barrel at different places along its length to find the loose and tight spots. And some guns will also benefit by reaming the forcing cone too.

Anywhooo....my Waller is pretty accurate when the barrel's kept clean. If a person wasn't going to keep the barrel clean(by using a good lube/wax made into lube pills or saturated into wool wads and put under the balls in the chambers) I'd say "don't ream the chambers". Anyway, the size of the chambers is decided upon by slugging the barrel to know the groove diameter. Then it's decided whether a person wants the ball the same size as the barrels grooves or .001-.002-.003 in. over the groove diameter. I did open and elongate the forcing cone some years ago but an average forcing cone works. I'd have to add that I don't use powder like the 777 in my Walker. Why push it? ha ha ha....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4632925&postcount=21

Bore size vs cylinder size.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=244774&highlight=ream

==

Round Ball Alternatives for C&B Revolvers

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=462227&highlight=ream

==

Groove Diameters Larger than Chamber Diameters?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=521676&highlight=ream

==

Posts by Cincinnati Slim:

I reamed my cylinders to match the bores...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=281460&highlight=reamer

==

Slugged bores of a variety of six-guns...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279436&highlight=ream

 

[tpelle]

BTW, you never precisely disclosed the firearm you are considering for this particular adventure in gunsmithing. It'd be helpful to understand the make/model of the revolver and if you have a conversion cylinder for it.

In my second post to the thread I mentioned that I was thinking about a pair of Pietta 1860 Army clones in .44 of course, and a Uberti Cattleman 1873 clone in .45LC.

Since I was thinking about using the tool on three revolvers, that took some of the hurt out of the $80.00 price from Brownells. I guess I could also use it on my Pietta Remington New Model Army, too, for that matter.

 

[ClemBert]

Since I was thinking about using the tool on three revolvers, that took some of the hurt out of the $80.00 price from Brownells. I guess I could also use it on my Pietta Remington New Model Army, too, for that matter.

Seems to me that you're gonna get your money's worth!

Just to further what I was saying about "bore diameter" it would seem that in the USA the most common definition is that of the lands diameter. To keep things clear it is best to refer to the "groove" or "lands" diameters rather than specify "bore diameter" because I know there is still a lot of confusion as to what that means.

From Chuck Hawks:

Bore diameter - The land to land diameter of the inside of a gun barrel, usually expressed in decimal fractions of an inch (.300). Traditionally cartridges have been named for the bore diameter of the guns that fire them (.270 Winchester).

Groove diameter - The groove to groove diameter of the inside of a gun barrel. This is usually the same as the diameter of the bullets that it is intended to fire.

This probably comes from the traditional method (before hammer forging) of creating a barrel where you start off with the bore diameter of the barrel for the bullet you want to shoot then you add the rifling next which gives you the grooves.

 

[Curator]

I have reamed several ".44s" using a 7/16 reamer with a slight taper. I got good results by going slow. Chamber diameters ended up .4535. This seems to work well with .457 round balls. Recently I bought a .452 piloted Throating reamer form Brownells. I "did" several .45 Colt revolvers then turned it on my recently purchased Uberti 1848 Colt Army (3rd model Dragoon) I had to shorten the .447 diameter pilot by about half to get it to cut deeply enough in each chamber but once done it worked fine. All six chambers are now exactly .4525 which matches the bore at .4520 nicely. Having the pilot made starting the reamer by hand a bit more exact. The pilot supplied just happened to march the Uberti original chamber diameters within a half a thousanth. Other piolets are available. Accuracy improvement using .457 round balls is remarkable.

 

[mykeal]

Applying the definition of 'bore diameter' from Mr. Hawks reference (which is also what I've understood to be the popular definition) to Curator's post can leave one confused. Surely Curator did not ream his chambers out to the land to land diameter - I'm pretty sure he (Curator) means groove diameter.

From Chuck Hawks: Bore diameter - The land to land diameter of the inside of a gun barrel,

All six chambers are now exactly .4525 which matches the bore at .4520 nicely.

 

[Curator]

mykeal,

I did mean "groove" diameter as you suggest.

 

[MutinousDoug]

I have reamed several ".44s" using a 7/16 reamer with a slight taper. I got good results by going slow. Chamber diameters ended up .4535.

Curator;
I am mystified that you achieved a .4525 hole with a .4375 (7/16th") reamer.
I used a 29/64th" reamer to dress my ROA cylinder on a Bridgeport mill to get .4531 dia holes and that reamer really only cleaned up about 4 of the 6 since the other 2 were already at least that dia.
Doug

 

[Voodoochile]

On my one Pietta 58' I reamed all 3 cylinders from the orriginal .4465 diameter to the now .4510 diameter to better match the barrels grove diameter of .4495.

 

[andrewstorm]

kentucky the south ?

first OFF,KENTUCKY IS NORTH OF THE MASON DIXON LINE.AND AS ABES BIRTH PLACE,IM SURE IT ISNT A PART OF THE SOUTH,ANY HOO,SLUG THE BORE FIRST AND SEE WHAT YOU GOT,THEN USE THE BULLET THAT FITS BEST,SIMPLE AS THAT,SOME GUYS WRECK A GOOD REVOLVER ,FOR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE,THEN IF ITS NOT TO SPECS,REAM IT ,SPECS VARY AS DO BULLET DIAMITERS,FIND THE RIGHT BULLET AND YOULL GET GOOD ACCURACY

 

[tpelle]

Ahh, Kentucky may be North of the Mason-Dixon line, but in the War of Secession it nearly went with the Confederates. And, yes, it was the birthplace of Abe Lincoln, but it was also the birthplace of Jeff Davis, too. As a matter of fact, Kentucky did have a "shadow" Confederate government, with it's seat of Government in Bowling Green. A number of famous Confederates called Kentucky home, including John Hunt Morgan.

When Lincoln was elected president, not a single Kentucky county went Republican. As a matter of fact, in Fayette County, where Lincoln actually had family, he only received four votes! Wonder if any of 'em were relatives?

U.S. Senator John Crittenden of Kentucky had two sons, George and Tom. Both held the rank of Major General, but George was in the Confederate Army and Tom was in the Union.

Kentucky started out officially as neutral, but eventually sided with the Union after the the Confederates invaded, which must have ticked some people off. Must have been that whole States Rights thing, I guess. But when the war started, the country didn't split into TWO countries, it actually divided into THREE - The North, the South, and Kentucky!

I have six balls that were pressed in to the cylinder, then driven out through the nipple hole. I'm actually in California at the moment, but when I get back I'll slug the barrel, measure things up, and see where I stand.

 

[martysport]

I used an 11.5mm hand ream on my Pietta 1858, worked great.
The ream was dirt cheap off ebay (from China) but it worked with no problems and I loaded a Lee .456 conical into the cylinder (no powder) and pushed it out again and it measured .4525"

I haven't had the time to really shoot it yet but I did fire one shot just to test it wasn't going to explode, which it didn't

 

[J-Bar]

Redneck method for determining relative bore vs. chamber diameter:

Push a lead ball through the barrel, then see if it will drop into a chamber. Leave the micrometer in the drawer.

 

[arcticap]

These balls were collected after firing anemic squib type loads at a thick foam target. The revolver was an ASM 1851 Sheriff that was made in 1992.
It was left loaded for a number of years and the powder went bad.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=87179&d=1225598253

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=87180&d=1225598265