Looking at a range toy target 9mm based on the CZ design. Is the CZ really worth double the money? And for those that own them and have shot other target 9mm how do they stack up? would the CZ be on the same playing field as say a tuned 1911 or sa Smith 952?
CZ tactical sports vs Witness elite match
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Queen_of_Thunder
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As an owner of a CZ 75 TS all I can say is its one fine firearm especially in the $1200 range. I hate to say it but it shoots better than my Sig X5 L1. Its a great firearm and my goto handgun. As for your double the money statement can you expand on it.
The CZ is about double the price of the Witness. I'm really at a disadvantage as the only way to get my hands on a tac sport is to buy one. I guess I just want to hear that the trigger is as good as CZ says it is and just how good they'll group.
wally
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The Witness Elite Match is one fine firearm especially in the $500 range. Only you can decide if an extra $700 on the CZ or the Elite and $700 worth of ammo is a better deal for you
I have a Witness Elite Match in 10mm. I love mine. They are great guns. But do not expect a completely trouble-free experience OOTB. You may have to play around with things to get it to run 100%. You may want/need to loc-tite the rear sight screws to keep the d@mn thing from disassembling itself in recoil (perhaps not as big a deal in 9mm as 10!). You will have fewer magazine and holster options.
They are also bigger than CZ's. Keep in mind, the Elite Match frame is the same in 9mm as in .45 or 10mm or .38 super. The grip is bigger to accommodate those longer cartridges.
All that said, I absolutely love mine. It has become my gamer gun, and the list of things holding me back in USPSA does not include my gun. Mine makes shooting 10mm pleasant. I imagine 9mm would feel like .38 wadcutters out of an N-frame.
They are also bigger than CZ's. Keep in mind, the Elite Match frame is the same in 9mm as in .45 or 10mm or .38 super. The grip is bigger to accommodate those longer cartridges.
All that said, I absolutely love mine. It has become my gamer gun, and the list of things holding me back in USPSA does not include my gun. Mine makes shooting 10mm pleasant. I imagine 9mm would feel like .38 wadcutters out of an N-frame.
Queen_of_Thunder
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My gunsmith uses a CZ75 TS in matches as I do. It was he who recommended that I buy a CZ TS. When I finally bought one I was wondering why I waited so long to do so. Anyway its a great gun with a great trigger and a gun I would not hesitate to recommended to anyone.
Walt Sherrill
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I think folks confuse the Tactical Sport with some of the other CZ "custom shop" developed guns. The Tactical Sport is a BIG gun, just like the Witness Elite Match -- only BIGGER. It comes ONLY in .40, now, but you may be able to find a 9mm version of an earlier model if that interests you.
Tanfoglio did a nice job of reducing the grip size while still using the same mag as the 97B, and it doesn't feel much larger, in the hand, than a standard 75B.
The Tactical Sport is a noticeably larger gun than both the 75B and the 97B, and slightly larger in all directions than the Elite Match.
I'd love to have one.
For the money, the Witness Elite Sport is a great gun, but it arguably is not be as refined and ready to race as the Tactical Sport. But Witness (Tanfoglio, really) makes other IPSC type guns, too, and if you want to spend the kind of money it takes to get a Tactical Sport, EAA will be happy to take your money, too.
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I agree with walt. The Witness elite limited, limited pro and stock models are closer to the CZ tactical sport and they are definitely closer in price. The limited being the highest, but having things like a pre drilled frame for scope mounting is nothing to scoff at. On gunbroker right now the CZ tactical sport as well as the witness limited are going for 900-1100.
The only way the elite match competes with those guns is the vast amount of options that the extra 5-600 bucks will give you. From ammo to gunsmith money. And then there's the simple....it's a much easier bite into your wallet for 90-95% of what those other guns are.
The only way the elite match competes with those guns is the vast amount of options that the extra 5-600 bucks will give you. From ammo to gunsmith money. And then there's the simple....it's a much easier bite into your wallet for 90-95% of what those other guns are.
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Walt Sherrill
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CZ only makes one HI-END gun on the standard 75B frame: the Czechmate, which is available in 9mm only. Nice gun.
Here's a link. This gun is match ready for IPSC limited or Open classes: http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/czechmate/
Armor Snail
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Czechmate is actually built on the same frame as the TS.
Armor Snail
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Idk why I can't edit my posts with Tapatalk anymore but I would like to add that a Witness Elite Limited is more closely inline with a CZ TS than a Witness Match. I would liken the Match more so with a 75 SA.
Walt Sherrill
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I stand corrected.Armor Snail said:
There was an earlier 9mm only IPSC gun, (I don't think it was the Champion, but it may have been) that was based on the 75B frame. Just looking at the photos (and shorter barrel length), and 9mm caliber, I assumed incorrectly that the Czechmate was a newer version of the same gun. I didn't notice, looking at the photo on the CZ website, that the Czechmate had the longer frame/dustcover of the Tactical Sport. The earlier 75-based 9mm gun had a shorter frame/dust cover and shorter barrel.
That original 9mm model was discontinued several years back. I had that gun's sear installed in my 85 Combat. I can't for the life of me remember the model name, and can find no reference to it in any of my reference books, etc.
My error.
But that error aside, it remains true that the Tactical Sport (and its earlier incarnation, the Standard IPSC model) is a bigger gun. It would appear that the Czechmate is the same gun taken even farther down the competition road. And it looks as though all of CZ's SERIOUS competition guns are based on the larger frame, now.
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Armor Snail
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Champion was designed for IPSC Open but was only chambered in .40 S&W
The also discontinued SP-01 Shadow Custom dual tone was 9mm IPSC Production ready
The also discontinued SP-01 Shadow Custom dual tone was 9mm IPSC Production ready
I've considered a 75 SA also. I had a 85 Combat and really wish I hadn't sold it now. This is really getting to be a tough decision.
I really don't need anything, but I want a CZ75 derivative for the collection, My 85 shot really well and if it had just a bit better trigger it'd be perfect for what I want.
Maybe I'll just find a standard 75b and send it to the custom shop for a little TLC.
greyling22
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I have an older elite match in 9mm (large frame, bomar sights, but pre-rail) that I added henning's grips to to make the grip a little smaller. And I talked my shooting buddy into a cz-75 tacsport in 9mm. So I've shot them both a lot. I have about 650 in my gun and he has about 1300 in his. My gun is 85% the gun his is. Sights are pretty much equal, I actually like my grip more (the large checkered wood grips and awkward magwell of the 75TS don't do much for me) My trigger is maybe 3lbs, his is maybe 2, 2 and some change, and a little cleaner. Neither is as good as a tuned 1911 or revolver, but light years ahead of a double action or striker fired gun. I like the full length dust cover of the 75tsa lot, both cosmetically and for the extra weight out front. If I can ever find a used 75TS for 850 or less I will upgrade. $900 is a maybe. I shoot the 75ts just a little better. 1" 5 round groups at 10 yds as opposed to the 1.5-2" groups I shoot with the elite match. I am more likely to upgrade to a witness limited if I can find ones used to 750 than I am a 75ts.
Couple of throughts: the 75TS does not have adjustable sights, and I like the current production elite matches a lot less than the old ones. I am not a fan of the new sights or the rail at all. EAA finally fixed the magazine problem with 9mm about 3 years ago, and customer service is not as horrible as the internet makes it out to be, but it's not what I could call good. I would call it "barely acceptable if you stay on them and are patient"
Couple of throughts: the 75TS does not have adjustable sights, and I like the current production elite matches a lot less than the old ones. I am not a fan of the new sights or the rail at all. EAA finally fixed the magazine problem with 9mm about 3 years ago, and customer service is not as horrible as the internet makes it out to be, but it's not what I could call good. I would call it "barely acceptable if you stay on them and are patient"
My thoughts:
Range toy = Witness. Cool points go to the CZ. If you can find a small frame (pre-2005) Witness you'd be in business. I have the small and large frame versions but the small is better in my opinion. Large frame isn't objectionable though. I've shot one Match version and the trigger and sights were better than my plain Jane ones. Be careful if you want an interchangeable front sight though. Mine are integral to the slide. I suppose if mine keep growing on me I'll pay someone to mill it and install a better sight. For my cost of admission I'd still be ahead of the game.
Armor Snail
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Small frame style Steel Witness can be found in the form of a Armalite AR-24 or Armscor MAPP 1.
None of the ones mentioned in this thread will be bullseye accurate like a 952 or Clark 1911. For that a custom built Shadow would be the ticket but pricey.
New hand fitted longer barrel, accubushing, tuned SAO. Good sights.
A CTS Longslide with accubushing would be deadly accurate.
Also if you want a .45 a CGW 97BE will match bullseye 1911 accuracy.
None of the ones mentioned in this thread will be bullseye accurate like a 952 or Clark 1911. For that a custom built Shadow would be the ticket but pricey.
New hand fitted longer barrel, accubushing, tuned SAO. Good sights.
A CTS Longslide with accubushing would be deadly accurate.
Also if you want a .45 a CGW 97BE will match bullseye 1911 accuracy.
Best laid plans go awry
well as often happens my search leads me someplace else. I found a very clean Mossad marked Tanfoglio 9mm according to my research it is very late 80s production and identical to the early small frame Witness. We'll just have to see if it'll shoot. If it shows promise I may just spend some $$$ on trigger and sights. If not I'm in it right enough I can peddle it and go back to drawing board.
well as often happens my search leads me someplace else. I found a very clean Mossad marked Tanfoglio 9mm according to my research it is very late 80s production and identical to the early small frame Witness. We'll just have to see if it'll shoot. If it shows promise I may just spend some $$$ on trigger and sights. If not I'm in it right enough I can peddle it and go back to drawing board.
Armor Snail
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Mossads are excellent. I'm sure you will love it. Great choice.
Yes I've read that they're some of the best Tanfoglio produced, I'm sure it'll group well enough if I can get POI=POA it should be GTG.
I shoot an informal bullseye league we use B27s and the longest shot is 25 yards and I'd like to use this for a session if it works well enough, I've found that the difference in my score is not very dependent on the gun. It just seams that I insist on pulling the trigger when the gun is pointed at the 9 ring a few times every match.
I shoot an informal bullseye league we use B27s and the longest shot is 25 yards and I'd like to use this for a session if it works well enough, I've found that the difference in my score is not very dependent on the gun. It just seams that I insist on pulling the trigger when the gun is pointed at the 9 ring a few times every match.
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