CZ75 recoil spring?

[CZ9shooter]

I wanna experiment a little bit with some slightly heavier recoil springs for my CZ. Two reasons.... First, I've never played with swapping recoil springs before, I just wanna see what effect a heavier spring might have. Second, I've got about five hundred rounds of +P ammunition I would like to burn up in this gun and figured a heavier spring should alleviate some of the added stresses.

So far no luck on springs. I have bought two from Wolff. Neither work. First I ordered a 16lb (14 is stock). It is about ¾" longer than the stock spring and a real PITA to install. At first I figured no big deal, it might take a "set" and shorten with time. However, the gun is completly non-functional once reassembled. I can not rack the slide. I can maybe pull it back half an inch. The spring is all bound up in there.

After some research I found some mention of that spring being intended for certain clones of the CZ75, and not fitting the real CZ's very well. Some people also claimed that Wolff's HiPower springs are a great fit for the CZ75.

So I bought a 17lb HiPower spring (the lightest offered). While the diameter of the spring suits the guide rod better than the other spring, the previously mentioned problems exist with this spring as well.

What gives!?

CZcustom GCW only offer reduced power springs. And I am not even sure if those springs will fit my gun. Any suggestions before I waste more money?

My gun is the BD Police model. I can't see how it would make any difference though.

 

[JDGray]

I've run up to 21# springs in my CZs, with no problems. Trim coils until the slide stays open by hand. I've only needed to trim coils though on compacts and my 40B because of coil bind.

 

[CWL]

Yes, just clip that sucker! Do it in 1/4" sections until you get can get proper operation.

Personally, I don't think you really need to change spring weights at all. CZs were designed around European NATO loads, which is already hotter than US loads.

 

[Shakespeare]

Solution

mboe794,

I had this issue with the same spring, years ago. Don't clip it.
I contacted Wolff.
They told me it needed to be fully compressed when installed.
It was tricky at first but once you get the hang of it, no problem.
First, put some safety glasses on just in case you lose hold of it and the guide rod goes flying. You might also perform the install under a laundry bag cloth or something else you can see through since if the rod goes flying you might not see where it goes!
With the rod in the spring, compress it all the way, then follow it as it decompresses and allow the guide rod to lock into its rightful place.
Done. It might feel a little different when you rack the slide but it should work just fine. I like the heavier spring. It makes for a softer shooting CZ75.
If the above doesn't work, contact Wolff for further advice.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Personally, I don't think you really need to change spring weights at all. CZs were designed around European NATO loads, which is already hotter than US loads.

Agreed.

 

[Pilot]

I use the standard weight Wolff spring, 14 lbs, in my 75B, and had to leave it in the gun with the slide racked for a few days before it would function smoothly.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The HEAVIER recoil springs will work, but you may risk damaging the slide stop -- as that extra stored force slams the slide closed with extra force. That extra force is all hitting the slide stop bar. Changing to a heavier spring will change the recoil experience a little, but so will a variable rate spring (which you can find if you use BHP springs, as noted below.) The factory spring is rated at 14 lbs, but a lot of factory springs, when measured, were closer to 12 lbs., and they worked fine.

If you feel you must change to a heavier spring, look at the Browining Hi-Power springs, instead. They are an almost perfect match to the factory springs, and there are quite a few different weights available from Wolff Springs.

Note: the Wolff Springs for CZs are really springs intended for the Tanfoglio verisions of the CZ, and are made to fit a larger diameter guide rod; those springs slop around a bit inside the CZ (as you'll see from marks on the inside of the dustcover and frame.)

I've been using BHP springs for several years, now.

 

[CZ9shooter]

As stated... BHP spring isn't any better.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

As stated... BHP spring isn't any better.

If those springs don't work, something screwy is going on with YOUR gun. I've had a bunch of different CZs and have NEVER had a problem with springs stacking, etc.

Can you post a picture of the slide with the recoil spring installed, just as it looks when you are ready to mount it on the frame?

Unless you've got a compact CZ-75B (Compact, PCR) it shouldn't be giving the problems you're having. Does the spring that came in it still work properly? The compact versions use shorter springs.

 

[CZ9shooter]

Stock spring works just fine. The other two are quite a bit longer. This is definatly a full size gun. Maybe I'll post pictures tomorrow. Otherwise I will just start cuttiing springs. If it dont work, oh well. Not really out anything more than I already am.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The fact that you can't rack the slide is puzzling. But not the fact that the new springs are 3/4" longer -- that is as it should be. (Unless you've got a "captured" recoil spring as in a Glock, the old and new will never be the same length.

A new spring will always be noticeably longer than a working spring already in the gun -- as a new spring will take a "set" (i.e., relax) with a few days of use. But they should WORK even if they're longer. If the new springs are too long to allow the slide to lock back, then something isn't right. And you say you can't even rack the slide. If the was that they were just LONGER than the old springs and hard to install, the problem would be your expectations of how the new springs should look and act. That doesn't seem to be the case. Your gun IS the standard full size 75B with the short guide rod? You've told us it's a full-size and not a compact version.

Your best bet, at this point, is to check with the CZ Forum www.czfirearms.us/ Two of the experts who drop in from time to tome Angus Hobdell (head of the CZ Custom Shop and a pro shooter) and David Milam (owner of Cajun Gun Works) are real wizards of the CZ line. Other participants include many savvy users.

Something is askew for you to be having the problems you're having. I've used the springs mentioned in many different CZs, and am running BHP springs in the only CZ I have at the moment (a CZ-85 Combat) and in a "clone" AT-84s. I've never encountered the problems you describe in a CZ that doesn't have the full-length guide rod.

My AT-84s has a full-length guide rod and it is a real BEAR to install the guide rod and recoil spring, even when the spring has had some use. A standard 75B uses a short plastic guide rod, so that shouldn't be an issue; only the compact CZs and the .40 models can use full length guide rods, and those models have openings on the front of the slide to allow the longer guide rod to protrude during installation and recoil.

...Otherwise I will just start cuttiing springs. If it don't work, oh well. Not really out anything more than I already am.

That is certainly an option. A problem with going that route is that the physically shortened (cut) springs WILL still shorten more with use, and then may not work as well as they should. (I think that cutting a coil or two will also reduce the force of the spring a bit, which is what you're trying NOT to do.) Cutting springs is sometimes necessary when you can't find the right spring -- but I don't think that's the case here.

The earlier comment about Wolff springs being intended for Tanfoglio guns is correct, but they work fine in CZs, It's just that since the springs are made to fit a larger diameter guide rod, they slop around a bit inside the CZ, with the smaller diameter guide rod. (The dust cover and frame, however, should keep the springs in the proper position during cycling.) The larger diameter should NOT be causing the problems you're having, and there shouldn't be any big slop with the BHP springs -- although the part of the spring NOT on the guide rod can always move around (up,down, and sideways) as the slide moves back.

the gun is completly non-functional once reassembled. I can not rack the slide. I can maybe pull it back half an inch. The spring is all bound up in there.{/QUOTE]

The spring should not be the binding so that the slide can't open far enough to lock open. I am really puzzled. Getting the springs to relax a bit, as described below, may not be a solution. Someone else talked with Wolff, and that may be your best option at this point.

Getting the springs to work as they should may be as simple as keeping them compressed for a while. *BUT THE BINDING ISSUE IS A PUZZLE*

HOW you do that may be hard to figure out -- since you don't seem to be able to lock the slide back. Maybe finding a big nail at the hardware store that could work like a guide rod, putting the spring on the big nail, and locking it in place, compressed, with some locking pliers will do it... A few days of that might relax it enough to work. (Spring designers factor in this "normal" relaxation in their design. Leaving a coil spring fully compressed for TOO LONG, however, can shorten a coil spring's life.)

(And as you noted, I read PAST or misread your earlier response where you said that you had tried the BHP springs. My error -- sorry.)

Good luck.
.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

The other two are quite a bit longer.

Compressed length comparison? I know they're longer in a relaxed state.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

So I bought a 17lb HiPower spring (the lightest offered). While the diameter of the spring suits the guide rod better than the other spring, the previously mentioned problems exist with this spring as well.

I was rereading your posts, to see what else I had missed or misread... I think we may be in step, now. Sorry that I may have added unneeded aggravation to your problem. I posted the point above for the others reading here, as you didn't want LIGHTER springs.

Wolff also makes variable rate springs -- these springs start out LIGHT and get progressively heavier as the slide moves to the rear. Those springs come in a number of lighter weights ranging from 8lbs. to 17lbs. These springs make a "press check" a lot easier. Those springs are a good bet for CZs.

It's almost like something is stuck in the dust cover of your gun near the muzzle so that there not enough room for the spring and guide rod -- such that the spring can't relax to it's normal starting length for installation or cycling.

With regard to your original purpose of going to a heavier recoil spring: even if you go to a heavier recoil spring, the +P rounds will still be hard on the gun. That said, I doubt that those +P rounds would damage the gun when you're using either normal or heavier or standard springs unless you're shooting thousands of +P rounds. The CZ steel frame is pretty robust. But, if you reload, using lighter springs will have you spending more time chasing after brass, and some may land in an adjoining county.

The main function of a recoil spring is to chamber the next round and return the slide to battery -- not to manage recoil or protect the gun. A strong spring will do the job, if it is able to fully cycle; a weak spring will do the job, too -- until it becomes so weak that it doesn't store enough energy to chamber the next round. With most gun designs, the heavier spring isn't protecting the gun, but may make things easier for the shooter (different recoil experience or easier to find brass.) If you start shooting lighter loads, be prepared to change back to lighter recoil springs. (An 18lb spring should work with just about anything, however...) A heavier hammer spring will have the same effect in slowing the slide and storing some of the slide's force, and not cause problems when the slide closes. Doing so makes the trigger a bit less friendly, however. (A good trigger job will offset a bit of that extra heaviness.)

 

[CZ9shooter]

Yes. I am aware of most of the simple physics involved with semi auto pistol operation. I just wanna try a heavier spring. That is all. When I get time I will monkey with it more. I promise, nothing abnormal is going on with the gun itself. A few hundred rounds through it. And I keep my things in emaculate condition.

 

[CZ9shooter]

Here's what I'm working with....


First pic is, from left to right, guide rod, ractory spring, Wolff 16lb CZ spring, Wolff 17lb BHP spring.



This is factory spring installed into slide.



The BHP spring. This is the only way it will stay put long enough to get it in the frame. Any other way and it flings right out. Usually toward my face. The other CZ spring acts the same way.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Good, explanatory pictures.

Looks as though Wolff has changed the diameter of their "CZ" springs since I last ordered. They're now closer to the factory springs. I haven't bought any "CZ" recoil springs in several years -- and have a small stock on hand -- way more than I have CZs or compatible "clones."

I haven't a clue as to WHY you're having the problems you describe. Here's a shot of mine with an 18 lb. BHP spring installed. It doesn't look a lot different than yours, and when it's put on the slide, it functions as it should. It is much harder to rack the slide with an 18lb. spring installed... (I've had that spring in the gun for quite a while... so I'm sure it's relaxed more than your newer springs.)

 

[CZ9shooter]

What I believe was happening is that the guide rod was jamming upward into the coils of the spring hard enough to cause some serious binding in the action.

Anyhow, I cut a little bit off of the BHP spring. It is now an eighth to a quarter inch longer than the stock spring. Still bends up a little, but not with "force" like it did before. Works well cycling by hand. Noticably more resistance. I might get a chance to do some shooting this weekend to see how it goes. If it ends up not working the way it should I still have the unmolested 16lb spring to play with.

Were your springs nearly an inch longer than stock?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Were your springs nearly an inch longer than stock?

I pulled out my stash of recoil springs. Several still in unopened bags. One used spring (don't remember which weight) was a bit more than 3/4" shorter than some of the unused springs... and the unopened springs included some BHP springs. (I also have a BHP, by the way -- which is how I first came to try that route.)

Misread you again -- and thought you removed much less than you actually did. (Guess there are too many distractions here at the house.) You must have removed almost 3/4". I'm sure it works, but it may prove to be too short, over time, as the spring takes a set. See if you can find a way to COMPRESS the OTHER spring and leave it compressed for a while. That might give you a USABLE spring that won't become TOO short over time. In the meantime, it will give you some idea of what a heavier recoil springs can do and how it feels...

 

[CZ9shooter]

I dont forsee any trouble from here on out, but you never know. I will report back after some testing.

Thanks Walt! And everyone that offered advice.

 

[1SOW]

mboe, I've experienced the exact same jamming issue with replacement "11#" recoil springs bought from CZ Custom---they market Wolff springs. The round wire spring replacements are longer.
I contacted CZ Custom about the problem, and they said to cut off one coil at a time until function is restored. This was all several years ago.

You should be fine now.

As Walt said, "the spring WILL take a set". My procedure is to get it as straight as possible by rotating the spring and guide rod with minimum coils cut off, then locking the slide back and put the gun away until the next day or two to allow the spring to 'set'.

 

[CZ9shooter]

Here's an update. I know it has been a while, but I have made few range trips now.

I like the shortened 17 lb HiPower spring a lot. It has not taken much of a "set" that I can tell. About 200 rounds and still 1/8 to 3/16" longer than the stocker. It is noticably stiffer when racking the slide. It works excellent with my high end reloads (124gr XTP at 1250 fps). Overall recoil, compared to stock spring, is obviously the same energy wise, but it feels much better. More 45 like I might call it. Pushy rather than snappy. Cases eject in a normal pattern.

I tried this spring with milder loads too (125gr cast at 1025 fps). Felt recoil was very timid. Seeing as how this load is pretty quiet compared to my other one, I was caught off gaurd and at first thought I might have encountered a squib. This was not the case. Brass ejected every time, but just barely. They fell right at my feet. I went back to stock spring and recoil and ejection distance returned to "normal" levels.

These are my opinions and feelings. Yours may differ.

 

[Pilot]

Thanks for the update. This has been an ongoing question of mine with Wolf CZ (clone) springs vs "factory" CZ springs vs Wolff BHP springs. Although I was able to get the Wolff spring to work, I still never liked how it felt when racking the slide. I bought a new spring from CZ custom, and it works great with no cutting of coils, and no binding. My 75B continues to function flawlessly.

It bothers me that one must cut coils from springs to get them to work properly. When you cut coils, you change the weight of the spring to something unknown.

 

[CZ9shooter]

Most of the time shortening does not effect spring rate. What does change is the amount of preload applied when it is installed the gun.

Progressive rate springs would change in rate by altering length.

 

[Thompsoncustom]

I always trim my recoil springs on full sized guns to make them fit perfectly I wouldn't get to worried about it.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Just curious, mboe794: did the browning spring (shown in the photos above) FUNCTION properly when installed (before you cut it, if that's the one you cut...)?



.