ojibweindian
Member
Completely agree.
dangerous dogs
- Thread starter SaintofKillers
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Completely agree.
I find it amazing how people are defensive of dogs- yes, I know they may be your pets and you love them like children- but if they pose a threat to others, REGARDLESS how sweet and kind they are to YOU, they are a problem.
Personally, if a dog bites me, it is history. Never had to shoot a dog, hope I never do, but I am NOT willing to be a test case for the severity of a bite wound. (s)
And the corollary to the vicious dog is the irresponsible owner- I cannot count the number of times I have heard of dog attacks on sheep , livestock, other dogs and cats, and the owner STEADFASTLY refused to acknowledge it was their dog. And the ones that scream and cry and threaten when their pet is shot while attacking livestock- UNBELIEVABLE!
Personally, if a dog bites me, it is history. Never had to shoot a dog, hope I never do, but I am NOT willing to be a test case for the severity of a bite wound. (s)
And the corollary to the vicious dog is the irresponsible owner- I cannot count the number of times I have heard of dog attacks on sheep , livestock, other dogs and cats, and the owner STEADFASTLY refused to acknowledge it was their dog. And the ones that scream and cry and threaten when their pet is shot while attacking livestock- UNBELIEVABLE!
learningman
Member
I used to take a walk with my wife and kids down to thr river from where I live. There was always one dog that like to show his hackels. I started carring a walking stick with me to defend myself and my family. Nothing happened until my wife and kids went without me one afternoon. The dog bit my wife and scared the hell out of my kids. The police said that it was an isolated incident and if it happened again they would handle it(I live a a very rural area). As you can imagine I was fighting mad. We didn't have any more problems until nearly a month later. The owner had been locking his dog up but decided enough time had passed and left the animal out. The dog came out on the road and and came at us in a dead run not looking very playfull. I wasn't carrying and firearm just my walking stick but it was enough. I may not make many fans by saying this but the dog won't bother anyone anymore. It is the responsibilty of the owner to control their pets, and if they decide that is to much work or are just indifferent and that animal threatens myself or my family then if you are the pet owner you had better dig a hole in advance. It was a dog and no dog is more important than my family. If you can't control your pet's then you don't deserve to have one. Just one mans opinion
No such case is necessary. This is an animal we are talking about and the same criterion that is used to determine "self defense" does not apply. Dogs are naturally armed and should be treated as such.
I would not let a dog bit me any more than I would let a human attacker stab me with a short knife.... oh because the knife is short it will take many such stabs to be life threatening.... bunk..
I have a right not to be attacked and I will defend that right with deadly force if necessary. Animals have no rights.... owners have a responsibility to control them.
Deavis
Member
That may be, but I want you to prove in a court of law that a dog invading your safe zone constitutes a deadly threat. Then I want you to think about the aftermath when the owner comes running towards your safe zone. Are you going to shoot him and his little dog too? Certainly the laws have made it easier to avoid prosecution and the burden, in many places, now lies on the state but I think you are advocating risky behaivor from two points.
1) You have many options as an adult to deter a dog, shooting it should be the last choice. You aren't a child anymore, you shouldn't limit yourself to that line of thinking.
2) Most people are not good enough shots to hit a small dog running full speed at them with a compact pistol equipped with iron sights at night.
#2 is the key point. You may be the next Rob Letham, but even he misses swingers sometimes and he is a better shot than most people in the world. Even a larger dog, I'll spot you a boxer or a lab, full speed at night when you are still breathing hard from running, I'll wager a case of beer that you couldn't hit it 1 time in 10 in a vital area under the said circumstances.
My main point is that you are advocating putting rounds into the air in a public space over a "safe" zone. Maybe that is "the way you roll" but I disagree with that advice. The original poster has a lot of options open to him, shooting is, IMHO, one of the worst in his situation. Your safe zone, as you call it, means nothing in court. I can stand 1 inch from your face and scream that I want you dead but until I actually take action to make it so, you cannot use deadly force to stop my behaivor and expect to sail through a review by the DA. Texas, like most places, has a specific set of circumstances that allow deadly force, a safe zone is not described anywhere within those laws.
Lastly, it is your obligation to talk, not confront, with the owner about the dog. It is due diligence and will pay off later when you decide to kill his dog. At least your attorney will have something to throw out there in your defense. I'm not telling you to be his friend, but a simple conversation can avoid a lot of problems. For all you know, he might put his dog up and if he doesn't, there are other options that are safer overall than shooting the dog.
romma
Member
I personally have had my fingers ripped open by someone's dog that they didn't want to control and it was pretty awful.
I say if a dog is threatening you, and you absolutely have no choice but to shoot or be attacked, then you do what you need to do. JMO
I say if a dog is threatening you, and you absolutely have no choice but to shoot or be attacked, then you do what you need to do. JMO
Deavis
Member
I'm not disagreeing with your right to avoid attack nor am I saying that a dog attack cannot be a deadly force situation. What I am saying is that the shoot first attitude might sound good here but I want you to do it in real life and see how it works out. See my point #2 above. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you should use it. There are other viable alternatives to deter an attack by a dog, especially under the given set of circumstances here, that don't involve deadly force and the real issues that come along with using it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
ojibweindian
Member
Actually, that may very well constitute menacing in the state of Alabama.
And, because of the clause "intentionally places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious physical injury", a person in this state very well be able to shoot you and make a legitimate claim of self-defense.
Gator Monroe
member
Mend and Strengthen your Fences (Trust me on this ! You cant spend too much on this ) And if you have too much Acreage for Escape proof fencing build a Kennel ! The Mauling lawsuit will eventually cost you your Rig,Boat,Savings,Jewelry,Guns,land and even possibly your wive or girlfriend and possibly your Freedom ! The best insurence coverage will help you keep some of the items listed but not all !
Erebus
Member
I had a paper route when I was a kid. I had to deal with aggressive dogs. My father told me "You have to get to those houses everyday, and you won't have customers long if you hurt their dogs". I got a lot further with Milk-Bones than with force.
A Milk-Bone or a few made a lifelong friend. If things got really outta hand I had a small canvas zipper bag for my collections and I kept plenty of coins in it "to make change" that would knock 'em silly. Never had to hit one though. Feeding them always worked. They were too busy begging for more Milk-Bones to bother with the fact that I was walking into their house.
You will reach a much more amicable conclusion if you get to know the dog and befriend him. You will never have to worry about him or lawyers or cops or angry neighbors that way.
A Milk-Bone or a few made a lifelong friend. If things got really outta hand I had a small canvas zipper bag for my collections and I kept plenty of coins in it "to make change" that would knock 'em silly. Never had to hit one though. Feeding them always worked. They were too busy begging for more Milk-Bones to bother with the fact that I was walking into their house.
You will reach a much more amicable conclusion if you get to know the dog and befriend him. You will never have to worry about him or lawyers or cops or angry neighbors that way.
I have seen almost this EXACT same thing said about pit bulls, rottweilers, dobermans, you name it. When I see a news story about a 6 year old kid that was ripped apart by some idiot's dog, the owner almost always says what a good dog it was and how it NEVER acted that way...and sometimes even how the kid must have done something to the dog to provoke it.
I see WAY too many irresponsible dog owners out there. I've been bitten by dogs 3 times in my life. None of the dogs belonged to me and it never happened on private property. If you own a dog and you let it run wild in the streets, you are just asking for trouble. No matter what breed of dog. Not only could it attack someone but it could also be hit by a car or come in contact with a rabid animal, predator, etc. It is careless behavior. If you own a dog it is up to you to take care of it at all times, not the rest of the world. If you let your dog loose and it attacks someone who decides to shoot it, it is your fault and your fault alone. I love dogs and I would never want to hurt one but if one attacked me, I would certainly consider shooting it. I refuse to be maimed or even killed because of a reckless pet owner.
GigaBuist
Member
There's a lot of media hype surrounding the pit bull breeds. We quite often see reporters call an SKS an assault rifle, newspapers showing pictures of an AR-15 and calling it an AK-47, etc. Do you really think these guys are properly identifying the breeds in their reports or just picking the latest breed with a bad rap?
Sorry, didn't mean to thread jack.
Dravur
Member
Just a tactical suggestion...
Call the police if you EVER need to draw your weapon.....
first call in, gets the most respect....
Your call 1.... Hello, police. Yeah, i just was almost attacked by a dog in the blah blah block of...blah blah. And did I mention my name was..Blah Blah. I drew my pistol to protect myself and did I mention my name is...blah blah. I did not have to shoot and my pistol is reholstered and did I mention my name is... blah blah and I am a CCW holder. What should I do? oh, and did I mention my name is... blah blah? Also, I am wearing a sweatshirt and shorts. Did I mention my name?
Dog Owner's call 1.... Hello Police <Breathless> there is a psycho running around outside my house with a HANDGUN!. He almost shot my dog who was trying to protect me... I need help! I saw him run off down the street. I saw the Pistol, it was big and black.
Now, which of these would be a better call? Which would be better for the police to have first?
If Dog owner gets in first, how many foot lbs of force will the 250 cop be placing on your neck with his boots?
Call the police if you EVER need to draw your weapon.....
first call in, gets the most respect....
Your call 1.... Hello, police. Yeah, i just was almost attacked by a dog in the blah blah block of...blah blah. And did I mention my name was..Blah Blah. I drew my pistol to protect myself and did I mention my name is...blah blah. I did not have to shoot and my pistol is reholstered and did I mention my name is... blah blah and I am a CCW holder. What should I do? oh, and did I mention my name is... blah blah? Also, I am wearing a sweatshirt and shorts. Did I mention my name?
Dog Owner's call 1.... Hello Police <Breathless> there is a psycho running around outside my house with a HANDGUN!. He almost shot my dog who was trying to protect me... I need help! I saw him run off down the street. I saw the Pistol, it was big and black.
Now, which of these would be a better call? Which would be better for the police to have first?
If Dog owner gets in first, how many foot lbs of force will the 250 cop be placing on your neck with his boots?
Deavis
Member
Yes, it might be menacing, which is punishable by a Class B misdemeanor, but are you allowed to use deadly force when menaced? If you can't, then who cares?
You are right, I am using rules that apply to humans but their is nothing in the lawbook that differentiates that I can find in Texas. You pull out a gun and, let's say we are only discussing property, kill a dog. You are now going to have to prove that the reason behind destroying that property was legitimate. Further, you are going to have to prove that you didn't break the law by discharging a firearm in the city, which is almost always against the law and doesn't mention animals as a viable reason either. I can't find anything to back up your claims in Texas that a dog is considered a lethal weapon but all the laws regarding deadly force revolve around lethal weapons. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't really think we need one to imagine the civil consequences of destroying a dog because it invaded your "safe" zone. Like I said, look at Howard Fish, a perfect example of what this situation could lead to. A dog leads to an enraged owner and a real confrontation that you can't just talk your way out of when you have a gun in your hand.
Again, the point that I think rational people can agree with. There are better ways to deal with the dog in this situation than shooting it, so much better in fact that even talking about launching $10,000 bullets down the street (that is what they'll cost you in court) is ridiculous.
Certainly, carry your gun while jogging if you feel it's warranted. But, I would absolutely advise you to also carry a can of pepper spray. Basically, it's a good way to protect yourself from animals AND save yourself a lot of grief. Your decision to draw a gun and shoot a dog will come under a lot of scrutiny, justified shoot or not. Use of pepper spray against dogs is much more easily justified and acceptable. Also, to be fair to the dog--most may be coming at you with bark, bluff, and bluster. I have no desire to kill someone's pet that may not really be out to maul me. The pepper is a good first step. If that doesn't work, you still have the gun, and can always show you tried the non-lethal deterrent first. That will be to your advantage.
K
K
brerrabbit
Member
- Joined
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Not for sure how it works most places, But if you have already filed on a particular dog, and the dog owner has recieved notification that he has a vicious dog. The dog owner is under legal liability to keep the dog penned.
If you shoot the dog in the street, the first thing the policeman is going to do after he finds you have a complaint on the dog is then to go jam on the owner. Most policemen are not sympathetic to dog owners after about the fiftieth vicious dog complaint.
Oklahoma law mandates all dogs must be restrained at all times. It also grants me pretty wide authority to handle dogs running loose.
The weight of the evidence is not on the shooter but on the dogs owner to prove the dog was wrongly shot.
While I do not arbitrarily go out shooting random dogs, I do handle problem dogs around my place.
If you shoot the dog in the street, the first thing the policeman is going to do after he finds you have a complaint on the dog is then to go jam on the owner. Most policemen are not sympathetic to dog owners after about the fiftieth vicious dog complaint.
Oklahoma law mandates all dogs must be restrained at all times. It also grants me pretty wide authority to handle dogs running loose.
The weight of the evidence is not on the shooter but on the dogs owner to prove the dog was wrongly shot.
While I do not arbitrarily go out shooting random dogs, I do handle problem dogs around my place.
Schutzen
Member
Presscheck,
You had better re-think your statement!
If "Anyone" ever shot my dog, they'd never shoot anything again.
Any action you take against a human will very likely result in a long prison term.
I've been in the situation where I felt I had to shoot someone’s dog, actually three dogs. My life was immediately threatened by the dogs’ owner. Fortunately I had my wife call the Sheriff before I even stepped out of the house. The Sheriff was on the scene with in minutes and immediately diffused the situation. I was standing there being threatened with bodily harm/death and was unarmed because I had returned my rifle to the truck. This threat was repeated in the presence of the Sheriff. The Sheriff’s first question was "What is going on here?" The response from the dog owner was, "THAT NO GOOD @#$%X#* SHOT MY DOGS FOR NO REASON!!!" My response was "His dogs were destroying my livestock!" The Sheriff, the dog owner, and I surveyed my fields. I had over $4000 of dead and dying livestock. The dog owner insisted,"I want him arrested and charged!" The Sheriff only asked one question and that was of me, "Do you want to press charges?" The Sheriff collected the dogs and transported the carcasses to a local veterinarian where their teeth were inspected for traces of wool. All three had wool in their teeth. The Sheriff and the County Prosecutor had a very long, very tough talk with the dog owner. I declined to press charges because of the very slim likely hood of recovering any monetary damages. I did not want to shoot his dogs, but he very irresponsibly allowed his "pets" to destroy my property. I took what I and the Sheriff deemed appropriate action to protect my remaining livestock. Sorry dog lovers, but you are responsible for your pets actions and the damage they cause. The other side of that coin is; Shooter, you had better have a very good reason for shooting and shoot responsibly. I apologize for the long rant, but I too am a dog lover and hate to have to destroy dogs whose true crime is being owned by an irresponsible person.
You had better re-think your statement!
If "Anyone" ever shot my dog, they'd never shoot anything again.
Any action you take against a human will very likely result in a long prison term.
I've been in the situation where I felt I had to shoot someone’s dog, actually three dogs. My life was immediately threatened by the dogs’ owner. Fortunately I had my wife call the Sheriff before I even stepped out of the house. The Sheriff was on the scene with in minutes and immediately diffused the situation. I was standing there being threatened with bodily harm/death and was unarmed because I had returned my rifle to the truck. This threat was repeated in the presence of the Sheriff. The Sheriff’s first question was "What is going on here?" The response from the dog owner was, "THAT NO GOOD @#$%X#* SHOT MY DOGS FOR NO REASON!!!" My response was "His dogs were destroying my livestock!" The Sheriff, the dog owner, and I surveyed my fields. I had over $4000 of dead and dying livestock. The dog owner insisted,"I want him arrested and charged!" The Sheriff only asked one question and that was of me, "Do you want to press charges?" The Sheriff collected the dogs and transported the carcasses to a local veterinarian where their teeth were inspected for traces of wool. All three had wool in their teeth. The Sheriff and the County Prosecutor had a very long, very tough talk with the dog owner. I declined to press charges because of the very slim likely hood of recovering any monetary damages. I did not want to shoot his dogs, but he very irresponsibly allowed his "pets" to destroy my property. I took what I and the Sheriff deemed appropriate action to protect my remaining livestock. Sorry dog lovers, but you are responsible for your pets actions and the damage they cause. The other side of that coin is; Shooter, you had better have a very good reason for shooting and shoot responsibly. I apologize for the long rant, but I too am a dog lover and hate to have to destroy dogs whose true crime is being owned by an irresponsible person.
All Pit Bulls are not small. They do range from 35 lbs but up to about 100 lbs. The gamebred (read: ones bred for many generations for dogfighting) are not likely to bother you any more than would a snail. The more common variety is much less likely to bother with you than, say, a German Shepherd. Obviously, if one decides "to play tag. And you're 'it'" you're fooked. I always carry when I bicycle.
SaintofKillers
Member
Deavis-
Please explain to me when I am then justified in dispatching said dog if he enters my safe zone.
Is it after one bite on the arm? two bites? three? Which is it?
Again this was not a small dog. Border collies and such dogs I do not consider to be small.
And as suggested I am now carrying a collapsible baton with me as a deterrent against such animals. I can say that given the situation I used the tools that I had at my disposal at the time.
Please explain to me when I am then justified in dispatching said dog if he enters my safe zone.
Is it after one bite on the arm? two bites? three? Which is it?
Again this was not a small dog. Border collies and such dogs I do not consider to be small.
And as suggested I am now carrying a collapsible baton with me as a deterrent against such animals. I can say that given the situation I used the tools that I had at my disposal at the time.
I did draw on a dog in a small downtown city. It lunged at me and the only thing that stopped it was that it literally ran out of leash. I had saliva on my freakin' knee! The dog was a Pit Bull and the owner was a young, misguided punk of a kid. I called the police and explained everything. They were not happy when they arrived, but after explaining to them exactly what happened and why I drew on it they understood and wrote the young lad a ticket. While doing so the dog lunged again and I closed ranks with the officers and we all naturally reached - including me. One of them drew on the dog and I laughed, bumped him on the shoulder and exclaimed, "Told ya so! Am I free to go on my way?" He was not amused and stated that I was. Now that I was free and clear I asked:
"Hey, I'm willing to stick around to back you up if you need it..." I was only half kidding.
They declined.
The dog was out of control - to the point that it should not be along the sidewalk with lots of people passing.
I don't think anyone can answer that question for you SaintofKillers. It all "depends" on the circumstances, obviously.
"Hey, I'm willing to stick around to back you up if you need it..." I was only half kidding.
They declined.
The dog was out of control - to the point that it should not be along the sidewalk with lots of people passing.
I don't think anyone can answer that question for you SaintofKillers. It all "depends" on the circumstances, obviously.
anotherKevin
Member
I'm a dog lover like most folks, but I fail to understand how you can casually describe a dog chasing a little girl, and then say the response is "low".
I'm not going to pretend to know the law in every state about self defence from dogs. But, I have dogs and support dog ownership- even dogs that don't play well with others.
With that ownership comes responsibility. IMO a dog that is off it's property and aggressive is a liability to the general public and should be put down if it cannot be captured...period.
Sorry....that's the way I feel. That feeling extends to animal aggressive dogs also. More people are injured while defending or breaking an attack of their pet.
On the subject of shooting dogs--- hard to hit --- HARDER to stop. Being held responsible to every shot downrange should slow the desire to spray and pray on an advancing dog.
With nearly 5 million dog bite victims a year-- avoiding and defending from dogs training should be on everyones to do list.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da33b3127cce914b33e48a6b00000016108QZNGjZw0aO
With that ownership comes responsibility. IMO a dog that is off it's property and aggressive is a liability to the general public and should be put down if it cannot be captured...period.
Sorry....that's the way I feel. That feeling extends to animal aggressive dogs also. More people are injured while defending or breaking an attack of their pet.
On the subject of shooting dogs--- hard to hit --- HARDER to stop. Being held responsible to every shot downrange should slow the desire to spray and pray on an advancing dog.
With nearly 5 million dog bite victims a year-- avoiding and defending from dogs training should be on everyones to do list.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da33b3127cce914b33e48a6b00000016108QZNGjZw0aO
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