rscalzo
Member
which bans civilian use of HPs in handguns
That is not quite correct. HP ammo is allowed for use on the range, hunting and in one's home/business which are areas that allow CC without any permits.
which bans civilian use of HPs in handguns
And why not do so when it doesn't impair your effectiveness?GregGry said:...limit all of the potential risks to your credibility....
One of whom is Massad Ayoob, and he recommends against the use of handloads for self defense. Part of his recommendation is based on the likelihood that gunshot residue from exemplar handloads would not be admissible if GSR is material.GregGry said:...There are more knowledgeable people here on firearm cases that have been tried in the past then 99% of websites...
And how many self defense shooting are you aware of in which handloaded ammunition was used? And as far as you know, in how many self defense shootings that went to trial were handloads used? As I've said before, I strongly suspect that in the substantial majority of self defense shooting, ordinary factory ammunition was used. There is most likely no good data on handloads at trial. Without data, we have to rely on professional judgment.GregGry said:...after years of people asking if handloaded ammo is a legal liability nothing has ever come up other then don't do it...
If you're on trial following a self defense shooting, there is other evidence. No prosecutor is going to pursue a possible self defense shooting case if all he has is that handloads were used. He will have to have additional evidence in order to feel confident enough that he can rebut your claim of self defense to take the case to trial. Without more, he's not going to spend the taxpayers' money and risk his reputation.GregGry said:...where lawyers brought up all sorts of things that had little to nothing to do with the case. IT happens, but its not going to get a conviction without other evidence....
The major manufacturers retain quantities from each lot.Inspector said:...how about different lots of "manufactured ammunition"...
Then if it's important to your case that you establish that you were a certain distance from your assailant, you won't be able to use GSR to do it. Maybe that hurts you and maybe it doesn't. But it is what it is. If you don't have admissible evidence with which you might be able to prove something that you have to prove, you'll just be out of luck.Inspector said:Suppose I have six rounds in my defense gun that are all 20 years old and the only other "same ammo" I have at all, I purchased just last week.
How are "they" going to test the lot from 20 years ago with the lot that I bought last week. Everything is identical, although I'm sure after 20 years, the powder and primers may be different!
Or, as someone else mentioned, suppose I use my blackpowder rifle for self defense? That is hand-loaded to my specifications, and I don't even write down those specs...
As you wish. But I think of all this as really two fights. The first is on the street. The second is the possible legal aftermath.Inspector said:...it is either me or them...
All I know is the gun does not show unless it is either me or them.
Period.
The Harold Fish case also illustrates how the legal aftermath can go south. It was reported to me, when I was recently in Arizona, by people apparently knowledgeable, that Fish was initially advised by both the investigating officer and the DA that it looked like a "good shoot." The DA was not planning to prosecute. But then friends of the man Fish shot put pressure on the DA to prosecute. So Fish went on trial and is now in jail.
Cite the facts and the sources on which you base this claim.Bubba613 said:...the jury's decision had nothing whatsoever to do with caliber, action, bullets, reloads or anything else. It had to do with the fact that the coroner's evidence contradicted the claim of self defense.
Bubba613 said:...I am 6 ft tall and 210 lbs. If another guy comes rushing up to me cursing and threatening and he's 5'8" and 165 lbs does that mean I can't defend myself with deadly force? Is there some kind of contest you have to go through first to see whether he really is stronger or more fit?
Bubba613 said:...Did you actually think that one through? You're going to let some guy pummel you to the ground and only then think about drawing your weapon?
Hello?
No, I don't think so. Do what you want. I'm drawing and firing if the situation arises....
See the following posts:Bubba613 said:Also, what is "unarmed"? Just because someone doesn't appear to have a weapon doesn't make it so. I'd hate to get shanked by an "unarmed man."
Prove it. Cite the cases.GregGry said:Handloaded ammo has been used in self defense and in homicides....
Then you might have problems if you're hoping to use GSR in your defense. Personally, I use quality, commercial ammunition.GregGry said:You can't assume that all rounds in commercial remanufactured ammo, or even cheap factory ammo is 100% identical...
Only if you could establish that it is the same as the rounds fired. That was, for example, a problem in the case of New Jersey v. Bias. Because handloads were involved, the judge would not accept that the rounds remaining in the gun were the same as the round fired and would therefore not admit evidence related to GSR from firing any of those remaining rounds. For an extensive recitation of the facts of that case, see post http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140 .GregGry said:...The remaining ammo that is in your gun (Provided you have some left) could still be used in an attempt to prove your distance with some degree of accuracy....
Well for one thing, the jury might not believe you without corroborating evidence. Remember, you're pleading self defense. You have to demonstrate that you were justified.GregGry said:If they can't establish evidence contrary to what you have stated how is it that you will be found guilty? ...
I will not do your research for you.Cite the facts and the sources on which you base this claim.
I said absolutely no such thing. Please do not put words in my mouth or distort what I said, even if that is your job.Basically, Bubba, you've said the you'd shoot in Harold Fish's situation.
I've done the research. And my research has told me that Fish was justified in shooting. If you think differently, it's your burden of proof.Bubba613 said:I will not do your research for you.
I did not put words in your mouth. I quoted from your posts in the disparity of force thread and provide links to the posts I quoted from.Bubba613 said:I said absolutely no such thing. Please do not put words in my mouth or distort what I said...
"...I am 6 ft tall and 210 lbs. If another guy comes rushing up to me cursing and threatening and he's 5'8" and 165 lbs does that mean I can't defend myself with deadly force?"
You can't assume that all rounds in commercial remanufactured ammo, or even cheap factory ammo is 100% identical. The remaining ammo that is in your gun (Provided you have some left) could still be used in an attempt to prove your distance with some degree of accuracy.
If they can't establish evidence contrary to what you have stated how is it that you will be found guilty? GSR evidence is something that can be used to establish distance, however mostly at closer range.
The presence or lack of it could used to prove or disprove claims of distance. However you are missing a key element in GSR. That it is not 100% accurate, and that it can be proven wrong.
With a handloaded round, if you can prove that a low loaded round would leave little to no GSR at close distances, then there is a hole in the claim that the lack of GSR means the person was shot at a further distance.
Yes in an ideal world you would want the GSR to go along with your statements, but there are circumstances with even factory ammo that might not be possible (Such as shooting through your coat if that was your only option).
I thought you were in a different state from Fish? How do you know what the jury saw or didnt see?I've done the research. And my research has told me that Fish was justified in shooting. If you think differently, it's your burden of proof.
Of course you did. Please acknowledge this obvious fact before I write you off as a troll.I did not put words in your mouth. I quoted from your posts in the disparity of force thread and provide links to the posts I quoted from.
Of course Fish didn't shoot the dogs. He fired into the ground to scare the dogs off. Sure, that would have ticked off his assailant, but Fish did not injury the dogs, and the assailant, larger and younger than Fish, came charging down a hill threatening Fish.Inspector said:Did Fish shoot the guy's dogs
first, then the guy got pissed at Fish and started coming after him?
I guess I would be rather pissed myself if someone shot my two dogs, however, had I been on the other side (Fish), I would try to befriend the dogs, even if they were growling and snarling at me....
First, in context, I think it all suggests that he thinks he ought to be able to use lethal force in such a situation. Look at the entire post.Inspector said:take that statement from Bubba as asking whether force would be justified.
Bubba613 said:"...I am 6 ft tall and 210 lbs. If another guy comes rushing up to me cursing and threatening and he's 5'8" and 165 lbs does that mean I can't defend myself with deadly force?"
"does that mean I can't defend myself with deadly force?"
I take that as Bubba "asking the question" -- kind of a rhetorical question -- not so much as a statement that he would absolutely DO IT!
Bubba613 said:I dont get the concept. I am 6 ft tall and 210 lbs. If another guy comes rushing up to me cursing and threatening and he's 5'8" and 165 lbs does that mean I can't defend myself with deadly force? Is there some kind of contest you have to go through first to see whether he really is stronger or more fit?
Bubba613 said:...You're going to let some guy pummel you to the ground and only then think about drawing your weapon?
Hello?
No, I don't think so. Do what you want. I'm drawing and firing if the situation arises....
What that means is that if GSR is important to your defense, you're out of luck. GSR isn't going to be important in every case. But you have no way of knowing ahead of time whether it will be in your case. If it's important to you and you don't have a way to get in good GSR evidence, well that will be just too bad.GregGry said:...If GSR is so important and has to be in your favor, what about black powder guns? Who knows if you put a load +/- 10 grains in it, extra eye of newt, or even some raw meat for flavor when shooting on the range. There is just about no way to prove how much of what was in the gun when you pulled the trigger...
If you want to write me off, that's your privilege. Everything is out in the open for all to see.Bubba613 said:Of course you did. Please acknowledge this obvious fact before I write you off ...