Debate: 158g LSWCHP +P vs. "LE" 147g +P+ hydrashok for mod 64 carry...

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sidheshooter

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3-inch K frame.

Pluses and minuses and/or opinions from any who have studied the merits of the long-proven classic as opposed to the newer hot loading of the heavy hydrashok?

I admit to being curious, and I like the idea of tapping the K-frame's robust quality to take advantage of the +P+ hop-up; but every time I see the 158g "FBI" load in an online catalog, I think "proven", and every time I see the new .38 spec LE hydrashok I think "147g 9mm subsonic..."

Am I being a luddite, or am I being practical?

Thanks in advance for the opinions!
M

(of course, this only becomes an issue once I am out of my stash of discontinued cor bon 158 LSWCHP +P+ 1000fps "RCMP" loads... why they stopped making this one is beyond me...) :banghead:
 
Carry the LHP. If you shoot someone with the Hydroshock he will get up and laugh in your face while beating you around the head. You'll also get sued for using hydroshocks.
 
Buffalo Bore makes a number of hot loaded 158 grain .38 Special defense loads, in particular (from their website)

Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch—1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch—1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch—1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch—1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

Honestly, I think either of the loads you are considering will do the job but I would lean toward the LSWCHP myself.
 
a few ???'s to ask yourself...

can the 147gr hydrashok +p+ load be obtained with relative ease beyond your initial purchase? is it still produced? is it available without having to search high-n-low?

ask the same of the 158gr lswchp +p load...3 or 4 manufacturers make the lswchp stuff, so there is plenty to go around & it is easy to order or obtain from local shops through their distributors; the stuff is universal & very popular while I only read threads about the 147gr hydrashok +p+ every other blue moon;

I have a modest stash of the Remington variant of the 158gr lswchp +p that feeds my .38 +p snub & .357 mag duty sized revolvers
 
S&W mod. 60, 2 inch—1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch—1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)

That load would be brutal out a J frame and most assuredly would seriously shorten the revolver's service life if used regularly. You are probably running 357 pressures to get those kind of velocities.

i happen to have my notebook handy and these are velocities I got with the types of loads you're contemplating from a 2 1/2" S&W M66:

Fed 147 gr +P+............837 fps
Fed 158 LSWCHP +P.....742 fps
Fed 158 RNL (std)........689 fps

not as much diffrence as you might think.
 
That load would be brutal out a J frame and most assuredly would seriously shorten the revolver's service life if used regularly. You are probably running 357 pressures to get those kind of velocities.
Click to expand...

Griz - I only mention that load because it's out there, many talk about it, and because they claim its pressure is not out of line. Personally, I agree with you that you can't have "something for nothing" and would choose any standard 158 LSWCHP+P.
 
You'll also get sued for using hydroshocks.

Could someone please elaborate?
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I don't get that either. Then why wouldn't dealers and Federal be sued for selling them? Makes no sense to me.
 
I don't get that either. Then why wouldn't dealers and Federal be sued for selling them? Makes no sense to me.
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I can't see a difference. The ability of a bullet to do its job effectively really has no bearing on the fact that you are utilizing lethal force.
 
See the Harold Fish case where the fact that he used Hydroshocks convinced the jury that he was a gun-wielding crazed maniac.
 
So what does that make folks who rely on Corbon, Buffalo Bore, Mag-Safe, and so on and so on?
 
Personally, I agree with you that you can't have "something for nothing" and would choose any standard 158
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I believe (not "know") that Buffalo Bore is using a powder with a better power curve for a short-barreled gun. It probably peaks fast, and maintains that peak pressure over the full duration of the bullet travel. Unlike a pile of super-fast powder that shoots way up in peak pressure and drops fast, it's probably a slower magnum-type powder with a good startup curve and a lower peak pressure. Folks have been getting VERY good results with Lil'Gun in similar situations with pressures in managable ranges (according to docs).

-Daizee
 
I've heard that also, Daizee, but of course don't know. Thanks for posting that information.
 
Not to spin this too far off topic but the only mention I can find was the prosecution first used the fact that it was a 10mm and then hollow points. I can't find anything that actually states hydroshocks were specifically a damming factor.
 
I think Bubba is just funin' ya.

See the Harold Fish case where the fact that he used Hydroshocks convinced the jury that he was a gun-wielding crazed maniac.
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Actually he was vilified by the prosecutor for using a 10mm, "much more powerful than the rounds used by the police" according to the prosecutor. He was not sued in civil court.

He got convicted because he had a lousy lawyer and was facing a politically motivated and unscrupulous prosecutor.
 
I would choose the 158 myself because, like you, the term "proven" comes to mind.

I do believe the 147 would be a good round as well though. I wouldnt compare it to the old 9mm load because, from what I've seen, manufacturers use a wider hollowpoint for their revolver lines. A bigger hollowpoint, I believe, would help it expand more.
 
"Get sued for using them" while it true that there a good chance after a situration that you had to use deadly force to stop a threat you might get sued they will be looking at other things then the round you had as long as it a round you can buy shouldn't be any problem. Now in Texas if they dicieded that the shooting was justified you are excempt from being sued.

Be safe
 
I quit carrying my older model 60 loaded with +p's. I only fired a few of them at the range and found it to be very comfortable to shoot. However, S&W didn't rate my 60 for +p's so I felt that it would be fuel for the lawyers because I loaded my defense weapon with ammo beyond what the manfacturer approved of. With the 442 I recently purchased I eliminated that arguement. Here's another thought. Let's say I had a .44 mag or even a 500. A mild load in either would make the hottest .38 run for cover. Am I now not a crazed lunatic because I was shooting 'mild' loads? I don't have either of the bigger bores and I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I just want to see what others thought about this and the legalities.
 
My mod64 is either loaded with 158gr LSWCHP +Ps or 125gr Gold Dots.

I read that the +P+ was designed to be used in .357mag guns for police departments that wouldn't allow the "too powerful" magnum loads. S&W says that +P+ should not be used, and I don't see any advantage it has over the LSWCHP or Gold Dots.
 
I don't know about getting sued, but I keep 125gn Gold Dots in my 4in 64. Any good off the shelf name brand defensive ammo will work just fine. I also like the UMC 125gn+p Jhp. It's a good inexpensive round as well, allthough I don't have a problem with using standard pressure 158gn SWC's in a pinch ;)
 
Amazing what people will believe.

Anyway, ammo choice is largely an individual thing. Shoot what works best for you and your gun. Shot placement is king. Everything else is secondary. Plenty of dead people will tell you the LRN works OK.
 
I would imagine that the 147 grain +P+ HydrAshok would be much easier to reload with than the 158 grain LSWCHP due to the smoother bullet profile. Plus, a fully jacketed bullet is going to hold up better in speed loaders or speed strips bumping around in pockets than any lead bullet.

Of course the same is true for the Gold Dot, or any other jacketed bullet without exposed lead.

If you find the idea of the LSWCHP comforting, how about loading the revolver with LSWCHP and carrying the Hydashok as spare ammo.

PS Its Hydrashok, not Hydroshock or Hydroshok.
 
I read that the +P+ was designed to be used in .357mag guns for police departments that wouldn't allow the "too powerful" magnum loads.

The original Super Vel (late 1960s) ran at +P or +P+ pressures. There was no +P or +P+ at the time and the big manufacturers used the term "high speed" or something to that effect. Gun and ammo makers didn't have to worry much about liability litigation at the time but eventually the +P rating came about. Keep in mind there is no SAAMI standard for +P+ except it's higher pressure than +P. Political correctness was the reason for +P+ coming into being. Many LE agencies started to go to 357s with the result of outcries of "excessive deadly force" (if you can figure that one out). +P+ came around in the late 70s and agencies could say they were only 38s in their 357s. More acceptable to the public.

I believe (not "know") that Buffalo Bore is using a powder with a better power curve for a short-barreled gun.

I've heard that too but if so I wonder why the big guys (Federal, WW, RP, etc) haven't picked up on it also. I was working for the federal goverment in the late 70s and given +P+ aka Treasury Loads ( I think they were made up for Secret service originally) and told they were safe to use in J frames. They discontinued the use in j frames after a few blew out the cylinder and/or topstrap. I didn't belive it then and I don't now.

Folks have been getting VERY good results with Lil'Gun in similar situations with pressures in managable ranges (according to docs).



I've also heard this too Daizee. My take is Joe and Charlie and their chronograph at the gravel pit lack pressure testing equipment.

If I want more than a 38 I'll use a 357 mag.
 
The original Super Vel (late 1960s) ran at +P or +P+ pressures.
Click to expand...
I had a retired police sergeant here telling me about the dept's use of Super Vels. He hated them. Said they went right through the target and flashed like a bulb going off.
We've come a long way since then bullet-wise.
 
Thanks for all of the responses and opinions, folks, I do appreciate it!

Plenty of dead people will tell you the LRN works OK.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and archduke Ferdinand would probably swear that .380 acp ball is a real manstopper...
:D

Seriously though, I totally agree with what you said about placement being king. I jumped on this quote only because, ironically, I just this morning finished re-reading the late Jim Cirillo's book on guns, bullets and gunfights. At the end, there are some stories from his NYPD stakeout days–including a whopper about LRN .38 ammo out of snubbies.

I won't steal/spoil the punch line for those that have not yet read the book (hint: the book is easy to find, easy to buy-as in; cheap-and easy to read. It would make a good stocking stuffer for most who would be in the revolver corner of this forum, IMHO) but, suffice to say, they were not amused by the old load's fight-stopping prowess.

Looks from here pretty much like the classics are classics for a reason.

I did see that that ammunitiontogo from that other thread will sell me bulk boxes of Remington's version of the classic LSWCHP +P on the cheap, so I guess there's not much to complain about!
 
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