PILMAN
Member
need some help with statistics about the castle doctrine, I am debating with an anti who seems to feel that Florida is a dangerous state according to what the brady campaign says.
Debating castle doctrine
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wolfman01
Member
Ya just gotta love those that think 9-1-1 will be their saviour. Yeah, they'll come take the report if you're still alive. Otherwise, they'll haul away your lifeless body.
Castle Doctrine states make me feel SAFER as I know I have the capacity to excercise my God given RIGHT to protect myself. As some who has several friends who also shoot - I think I have the capacity to tell friend or foe, and all know better than to barge in unannounced at 3 AM.
Castle Doctrine states make me feel SAFER as I know I have the capacity to excercise my God given RIGHT to protect myself. As some who has several friends who also shoot - I think I have the capacity to tell friend or foe, and all know better than to barge in unannounced at 3 AM.
mister_wilburn
Member
Anyone who thinks I'm going to advocate backing down from an intruder or someone aiming to do me or my family harm is sorely mistaken. The law is there to protect us, and I respect the law, but I will not hesitate to defend myself or my family if the Law Enforcement Personnel are not present at Dark-thirty in the morning. I'll take my chances with the cops when they arrive, and explain the mess at the foot of the stairs, rather than allow a would-be doer or something bad access to my home while I wait it out for the LEO's to show up. Some people seem to live in a part of the world where crime doesn't exist and where appeasing the bad guys gets you out of trouble. I feel bad for them, they are mistaken.
Crunker1337
Member
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If someone breaks into your house, you have the right to stop him. If that means using lethal force, so be it.
Me, if I was armed (which I'm not) I'd warn them and tell them to leave immediately (while calling 911) or I'm coming to help them.
In my current state of disarmament, I'd grab a crowbar, knife or pipe (which I keep close at hand), a cell phone, and hide. Then I'd call 911.
Me, if I was armed (which I'm not) I'd warn them and tell them to leave immediately (while calling 911) or I'm coming to help them.
In my current state of disarmament, I'd grab a crowbar, knife or pipe (which I keep close at hand), a cell phone, and hide. Then I'd call 911.
PILMAN
Member
How should I respond to this?
just cite all the "law and order" episodes were it was a B&E gone bad, and how all those actors would still be alive today if they shot the bad guy.
also explain that the castle doctrine is for protection of your home, and if somebody is in your home and acting threating chances are that it is not just a miscommunication and you should be allowed to defend yourself in your own home without fear of reprocussions. ask liz what she would do if a rapist broke into her home and her significant other shot him (shot the rapist), and now hes(liz' significant other) in jail for 25 years because he failed to retreat while at home.
if that doesnt help her, then just forget trying all togethor
also explain that the castle doctrine is for protection of your home, and if somebody is in your home and acting threating chances are that it is not just a miscommunication and you should be allowed to defend yourself in your own home without fear of reprocussions. ask liz what she would do if a rapist broke into her home and her significant other shot him (shot the rapist), and now hes(liz' significant other) in jail for 25 years because he failed to retreat while at home.
if that doesnt help her, then just forget trying all togethor
Tommygunn
Member
One thing that confuses me is that the people against these laws seem to think the average gun owning person is going to have some difficulty determining where and why to fire the gun.
I guess it must be confusing for the antis ... they must have all sorts of nice, honest well meaning guys who come busting through their doors or windows at 4:30AM just to say "HI there Neighbor! How about kicking up your heals, grabbing a brewski and popping a DVD in the player!"
If that's what was happening ... I guess I might have trouble determining whether the breaking glass meant I was going to be shot or knifed to death, or get together with a friend to watch the latest megadollar hollyweird flick out on DVD.
On top of which, they complain about people shooting someone just because they lose their temper ... as if these laws somehow make it OKAY to shoot someone for that reason.
I guess it must be confusing for the antis ... they must have all sorts of nice, honest well meaning guys who come busting through their doors or windows at 4:30AM just to say "HI there Neighbor! How about kicking up your heals, grabbing a brewski and popping a DVD in the player!"
If that's what was happening ... I guess I might have trouble determining whether the breaking glass meant I was going to be shot or knifed to death, or get together with a friend to watch the latest megadollar hollyweird flick out on DVD.
On top of which, they complain about people shooting someone just because they lose their temper ... as if these laws somehow make it OKAY to shoot someone for that reason.
wjustinen
Member
Key words here "seems to feel" and "dangerous state."
So often we are trying to counter "feel" with logic.
The whole idea of firearms is to make life "dangerous" for those who are dangerous to us.
So what's the solution? You might ask the anti whether he "feels" safer with an armed criminal or an armed friendly. You might also point out that police are armed to stop a violent assault. They may therefor protect themselves, and perhaps others. But, they can't be everywhere. Police are responsible people. So are most others.
Kali Endgame
member
Ted Bundy was a nice guy, too. Most of the time.
Pilman,
It's tough dealing with anyone who is arguing about how they feel about a situation. Maybe some stats on the number of CCW people and the inverse relationship between having a CCW and commiting a crime. Didn't FL legalize the use of a car, as a weapon, for personal protection down there? More people a killed in/on/around/near/ cars every year than by guns.
AJMBLAZER
Member
Michigan only recently became a "castle" state.
Before that your duty was to retreat at all costs from your attacker until you were just about f%^&ed...and then you could shoot them and deal with the arrest, trials, civil suits, and such later...
About 5 years ago a guy in Grand Rapids, MI shot some drunk/stoned/high/lord knows what else 20 something waste of skin who was lurching around on his porch, moaning and yelling unintelligibly, and trying to get into his house. It's been speculated that the kid thought it was his house but was so messed up he couldn't tell AND couldn't figure out to get through the door.
Husband confronts him with his .357 while wife calls 911.
Husband warns kid to leave ASAP repeatedly along with trying to talk to the guy. He gets no response (well, response that anyone other than a coyote or snow seal might understand).
911 lady is slow to respond and offers many UNhelpful suggestions.
(I know this because the 911 call got the whole thing on tape, you can hear the guy yelling and moaning the whole time.)
Kid lurches towards the husband who drills him with the .357.
Kid dies...I forget on the spot or after EMT's arrive.
The whole thing was BS because the guy was emotionally broken up about it while the local media slanted the thing towards the kid's *coughwhitetrashcough* mother who proceeded to sue the guy in civil claims court. The county sheriff said the shooting was justifiable and I think the civil suit got dropped because the media promptly forgot about it after a few weeks. Didn't go "their" way so they stuck it in a black hole.
Today the situation would have been the same but minus all the traumatizing law suit and media BS the guy and his family had to go through.
It sounds bad but the saying I used to hear from people around here was something like "wait until they're in your house and THEN shoot them."
Before that your duty was to retreat at all costs from your attacker until you were just about f%^&ed...and then you could shoot them and deal with the arrest, trials, civil suits, and such later...
About 5 years ago a guy in Grand Rapids, MI shot some drunk/stoned/high/lord knows what else 20 something waste of skin who was lurching around on his porch, moaning and yelling unintelligibly, and trying to get into his house. It's been speculated that the kid thought it was his house but was so messed up he couldn't tell AND couldn't figure out to get through the door.
Husband confronts him with his .357 while wife calls 911.
Husband warns kid to leave ASAP repeatedly along with trying to talk to the guy. He gets no response (well, response that anyone other than a coyote or snow seal might understand).
911 lady is slow to respond and offers many UNhelpful suggestions.
(I know this because the 911 call got the whole thing on tape, you can hear the guy yelling and moaning the whole time.)
Kid lurches towards the husband who drills him with the .357.
Kid dies...I forget on the spot or after EMT's arrive.
The whole thing was BS because the guy was emotionally broken up about it while the local media slanted the thing towards the kid's *coughwhitetrashcough* mother who proceeded to sue the guy in civil claims court. The county sheriff said the shooting was justifiable and I think the civil suit got dropped because the media promptly forgot about it after a few weeks. Didn't go "their" way so they stuck it in a black hole.
Today the situation would have been the same but minus all the traumatizing law suit and media BS the guy and his family had to go through.
It sounds bad but the saying I used to hear from people around here was something like "wait until they're in your house and THEN shoot them."
Gator
Member
You could start by comparing the violent crime rate of whatever State she lives in with FL. Then check percentage of gun owners in each State. You might find something to work with.
Prince Yamato
Member
The "accidental shootings" resulting from stand your ground laws are crap. If you are afraid of being accidentally shot, don't barge into someone's house at 3am unannounced. It's that simple. I told someone about my owning guns once and they said, "what if it's a good person you shoot". Well, first off, I live by myself, second, nobody who I would associate with would enter my apartment through the window and third, maintenance always calls first.
Also, how about this (true in Texas, not sure if true elsewhere):
If you're shooting an attacked in self-defense and you accidentally shoot a civilian, you get charged with murder, if a cop does it, they have a "get out of jail free" card. What's the cop's incentive not to "accidentally" shoot you?
Civilized people don't go barging through windows at 3am. Civilized people CALL before coming over. If you get so drunk that you can't remember where you live and wander around aimlessly, you are a threat. I also believe it says something about your character. YOU are responsible for your own actions and must accept the consequences OF your actions. Sometimes, there are lethal consequences. Long story short, don't get drunk and barge into people's homes at 3am...
Also, how about this (true in Texas, not sure if true elsewhere):
If you're shooting an attacked in self-defense and you accidentally shoot a civilian, you get charged with murder, if a cop does it, they have a "get out of jail free" card. What's the cop's incentive not to "accidentally" shoot you?
Civilized people don't go barging through windows at 3am. Civilized people CALL before coming over. If you get so drunk that you can't remember where you live and wander around aimlessly, you are a threat. I also believe it says something about your character. YOU are responsible for your own actions and must accept the consequences OF your actions. Sometimes, there are lethal consequences. Long story short, don't get drunk and barge into people's homes at 3am...
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