Decision Time! And I need your help - 870P vs. Ithaca M37 Defense.

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monduconstruct

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I considered making a poll on this topic but decided that since most people have the 870, they'll vote for it - and the poll will really end up being more about how many people own one vs. the other.

After a lot of searching over the past few months, I'm getting close to decision time on my first 12 ga. mostly for HD. I was very in love with the FN SLP 18", but realized getting one would be incredibly hard, and they're rather expensive, and I think I want pump for my first 12 ga. So I narrowed my search down to these two models: Ithaca M37 and the 870P. These are both popular pump guns, with plusses and minuses to each. The 870 is obviously a more proven gun, with a huge following of devote shooters. I'm sure either would work fine, I just am hoping someone out there in the forums has experience with both and could weigh in here.

I am not sold on synthetic vs. wood furniture, but both models come in both types, so that is a non-issue. I have no interest in adding gadgets or modifying the weapon in anyway either, so that should also be a non-issue.


ITHACA M37 Defense (New - From New Company) - $520
I've read terrific reviews of the new M37 produced by the new Ithaca Gun Company. (http://www.chuckhawks.com/ithaca_37_defense_gun.htm) Many people here seem to bash these guns simply because it's a new company - people with no real reasons, they just state the new company is bad, with no qualifiers as to why. It comes in a 5-shot (18.5") or 8-shot (20") configurations, all with a brass bead site. I'm probably leaning towards the 8-shot. While it might not be as balanced, I can always opt to just not load those last 3 shots, so it would weigh essentially the same as the 5-shot. From everything I've read on these new Defense models, they shoot and handle wonderfully. I kind of like the idea of having something a little unique that not everyone has - but I also realize that it may be more difficult to get worked on, and clean. Can anyone comment on the cleaning of this gun? Oh and not that it really plays into the decision, but shells eject from the bottom of the gun.


REMINGTON 870P - about $800 in MA
Obviously everyone is familiar with the 870 Police .. it's really just a challenge of finding one to buy. I am probably going to buy a new gun whenever I do, because the used stores around MA are pretty sparse. I've read a lot about the recent 870s (even the Police models) having lots of manufacturing issues, including failure to eject, etc. In my eyes the real benefit here is that they are easy to break down, easy to maintain, and most gunsmiths would be familiar with them if they needed work (especially if they came from the factory messed up). Everyone says that the proven nature of the 870 is a plus, but I've read a LOT of negative comments lately. Another advantage is that there are many different sight options, I'm particularly fond of the rifle sights with tritium bead. This is about $280 more than the Ithaca M37, and would need a 2-shot extension tube to get it to 6+1. From what I've read, a factory extension tube runs about $85, so this gun is really $365 more than the Ithaca all said and done. Lastly, this is obviously a side-ejection shotgun.



Thoughts? Comments? Advice? Testimonials?
 
The 870 isn't more "proven." The Model 37 has been in production and use for 13 more years, and it saw service in WW II.

WRT Ithaca Gun's current incarnation, I don't know. I sure wouldn't bash them, but I haven't used any of their guns, so I can't say how well they're made.

I have an 870, and it works. It has its flaws, but what doesn't? But, for a number of reasons, I certainly would choose a 37 over an 870, to shoot -- though not to clean, as you said.:)

This much I do know: I absolutely HATE Remington's bead on a pedestal. I've had them. If I'm going to have a plain barrel, just put the bead on the barrel! It is quick and natural to point.
 
I don't have a new Ithaca but the two older ones I have are considerably harder to clean the action on, than the 870 I own. To make a point, the first thing you do to detail strip the reciever on my older Ithacas is; Remove the buttstock. The good news is that with the only opening in the reciever being on the bottom. They stay inherently cleaner than my 870, given the same amount of usage. Barrel removal for both is a snap. I'd probably go with the 8 shot Ithaca, with wood furniture, for its classic looks. Not to mention the difference in price.
 
The M37 is a proven design and since I'm a southpaw, I would choose it because of its bottom ejection. I love my bottom eject Stevens 350.
 
While it should go without saying, both shotguns under consideration are fine choices. For mostly subjective reasons, I'd opt for the Ithaca. As far as the Model 37 being "proven", not only has it been in production for thirteen more years than the Model 870, as ArmedBear pointed out, but the action and design is little more than an improved and refined Browning-designed Remington Model 17-which was introduced in 1921.
 
Both are top-quality well built shotguns that will serve you (and probably your grand-children) for many years. Primarily depends on what YOU like and what "Fits" you.

My preference is the Maverick 88, because that is what "fits" me!
 
Both are top-quality well built shotguns that will serve you (and probably your grand-children) for many years.
Click to expand...

I'm almost certain that more HD shotguns have succumbed to rust than wear and tear, over the past century...
 
If you shoot a shotgun with shot, and you know how to shoot a shotgun, a bead is more than adequate. I have an old single-shot Ithaca with a bead on the barrel and I've blasted clays with it.

If you don't know how to point-shoot a shotgun, and you don't want to learn a whole new way of shooting, ghost rings make it work more like a familiar rifle. For HD purposes, this works fine, though it's relatively slow, and unnecessary if the gun fits and you practice pointing.

What I would NOT get would be Remington's bead on a pedestal, as I said.
 
bushmaster1313: I had considered trying to find used shotguns, but since I am rather particular on which model I get ... finding a used version of an Ithaca or an 870P up in my neck of the woods is next to impossible. There just isn't much out there used. I have finally accepted that it will most likely have to be new. Unless I find something in NH maybe in the next few weeks.
 
The 870 is obviously a more proven gun, with a huge following of devote shooters.
Click to expand...

Just because there's more of them out there doesn't make it more proven. 870's can and do have issues. For one, they are (at least the express models) much cheaper built than the Ithaca.

The M37 is very, very similar to the Remington 17. It was a fantastic gun.

The 870 is definitely more accessorizable than the M37, but if you like the Ithaca as-is, I'd give it the nod. Certainly less ho-hum than another 870.
 
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I prefer the Ithaca's handling, control layout and smoother operation by far. The big downside is going to be in cleaning it though, not only will detail cleaning be much tougher but even quick cleaning will be more of a hassle because of the Defence models' ridiculous non removable barrels.
 
Think "installed base." The 37 may well be a better design, but in terms of parts (factory and aftermarket) and know-how, which is easier to deal with down the road? In my mind, it's no contest. I like to think ahead with rainy-day scenarios in mind. If I can't get it fixed or buy ammo for it in the backwoods of Vermont or 500 miles from that closest exit off I90 in Montana or Wyoming, I'm going to pass. YMMV!
 
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Non removable barrel?! really....
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The barrels on mine are very easily removed. But as I said, they are the older models. One made in '57 the other in '84. I had never heard that the newer defense model had a fixed barrel. But thats nothing a boresnake wouldnt take care of quickly.
 
It's right on the Ithaca site, the Defence models have a soldered-in barrel like that of their slug guns, supposely this is to "prevent the barrel coming loose in a critical situation!" or somesuch but it really has to be a cost cutting measure.

If I could I'd gladly pay the extra $50 or $75 it probably costs to have the barrel and receiver threaded, just to have the look of the classic Ithaca lug, let alone make cleaning the barrel easier, but unfortunately Ithaca isn't offering that at this time.
 
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but it really has to be a cost cutting measure.
Click to expand...
I looked at the site and sure enough. You're probably right about cost cutting. It probably wouldn't be that bad to clean, and it is simple. But I'm glad mine are threaded and removable.
 
Of the two, hands down, no question whatever, not even close: a Remington Police Model.

I have a long-running Remington association professionally (retired cop) and personally (currently own three in defensive configurations).

I had the very basic Ithaca Model 37 Defense version with short magazine & wood furniture here briefly as a test sample.

Reports of problems with new Remingtons are more prevalent in the economy-grade Express 870s than with the better quality police guns.
You have a much greater choice of aftermarket accessories & parts.
The modular setup of the 870 is infinitely easier to break down for cleaning.
The side ejection offers better defensive utility in being able to quickly combat load the chamber through it.
Much better sight options, I've owned a Winchester 1200 bead & an 870 bead, found them both inadequate for slugs, although the Remington raised bead was much superior to the lower old-style bead.

The Ithaca, and I'll emphasize this was obviously an abberant sample, was the current company's bottom of the line basic entry level plain no-frills gun. It had very uninspiring wood that wasn't fitted to anywhere near the quality of the older Ithaca sporting shotguns. Finish was a basic matte, no polish. That's not a problem, considering the price, and wood & finish were certainly functional.
The action wasn't, however, I barely got the first empty shell out of the chamber by using a lot of force on the fore-end, the second empty shell was in there so tight I had to leave it & return the gun to Ithaca as it was.
Again- I emphasize that the sample in question was NOT typical, or Ithaca couldn't possibly be still selling them. I mention it as my direct experience with one of the models under discussion, NOT as a blanket condemnation of the company or product line.

The two killers for me as far as personal use goes were the non-removable barrel ON THAT MODEL, and the single bottom-eject/loading port. The non supported magazine tube front end would be another issue, although not entirely a deal killer. If you get the synthetic version with a longer mag tube, that one's supported at the front end & it's a different matter.
After many years of the 870s side port, I prefer it in a defensive or combat role because it's faster & simpler to quickly get a first round chambered in an empty gun than it is with a single bottom port design.
I would only buy a non-removable barrel defensive shotgun if there was simply no alternative available.
The low bead would work for buckshot, but it'd be very inefficient & most likely not regulated well for slugs.

For maximum utility, some sort of rifle sights are highly advisable. I won't use a plain bead, I find it too limiting. You can order your Police 870 with factory sights installed, you're stuck with the bead on the Ithaca Defense gun, or you'll need to pay a gunsmith to attach something better.
You can also buy numerous factory parts for the 870 from several sources, including firing pins, entire bolt assemblies and trigger groups, as replacements that go in quite easily. The Ithaca Defense model doesn't offer those conveniences.

The beaded Ithaca 37 was a police mainstay for many years and it'll perform a basic level of function, but the 870 has long been a better-adapted platform for combat & defensive purposes.

You say you have no interest in modifying or adding gadgets, and a good defensive pumpgun doesn't need much. Sights, at anything beyond 25 yards with slugs, are required equipment for me. If you plan to use only buckshot & only inside 20 feet or so max inside a house, sights are less critical.
You may change your mind on at least a better quality recoil pad. The Ithaca pad was OK, you can do better and in a lightweight shotgun you probably should. The Remington Police 870s tend to come with an excellent pad.
Most of us like a full-length magazine, you'll have to buy the synthetic Ithaca model to get it. The Remington can be ordered with standard tube if money's an issue up front & an extension can be ordered later.

I personally see no huge need for ten pounds of lights, lasers, sirens, buzzers, night scopes, and so on. Many people do, a light is the only one that really provides a worthwhile benefit for me, and if you decide at some point down the road you'd like to install one, you won't find nearly as many quality options for the Ithaca as you will for the Remington.

You may be pretty sure you're set on what you need or want today, but in actually using what you get you may find that once you have a yardstick to judge by, a tweak here or there is indicated. Best to leave yourself with some wiggle room for comfort or performance upgrades down the road.

If you want only a very basic shotgun that goes boom, the Ithaca will do that. Just remember the difficulty in breaking it down for cleaning.

Denis
 
DPris -- Thank you so much for such a thoroughly thought out reply ... that is actually just what I was looking for. I was praying that someone with knowledge of both would come along. I think the cleaning/maintenance issue is much bigger than I originally thought. I also really like the rifle sights with tritium bead option for the 870P. I'm very skeptical I'll ever find that 870P out there to buy though. We'll see. Hopefully there's someway I can buy it online ... but that's another $100 in shipping and the FFL dealer charge. Oh well.

Thank you again everyone for all the helpful information!
 
^^^

The 870's side port loading advantage is a good point but IMO the 870 "needs" it because the magazine is so comparatively awkward to load next to the '37, you can't beat a FAR lighter mag spring design and having no shell elevator in the way when it comes to getting 'em in there.

Also, since that the bottom eject of the '37 works with the force of gravity and uses the leverage of the shell carrier's downward stroke, it's very difficult to short stroke. I can run the slide on my '37 as slow as I want to and it'll still drop the empties just fine, my 870P? Not so much.

I'm not in the habit of short stroking my pumps but it's nice to know that it's not something you really have to worry about under stress on the '37.
 
Mondu,
Hope some of it was of use.
I know money's always a factor, but if you're going for a self-defense tool my opinion is that sometimes it's necessary to pay more to get more, and my 870s are set up with that in mind. None are fancy, none have any additional options beyond extended mags, good sights, better mag followers than the flimsy factory ones, better pads, better safeties, and better stocks.
None of those are there to be flashy, cool, or "tactical" (a word I hate).
They are all genuine improvements that offer genuine benefits to me.

As far as cleaning goes, it'd drive me nuts, being a simple guy (lazy), to have to take a stock off to get at the guts, and I'm just spoiled by the easy breakdown of the 870. :)
The non-removable barrel would fall in that category, quite often it takes some scrubbing to get lead & plastic residues out of a bore for me & I like to work on just the barrel without having to deal with the rest of the gun attached to it.

Young,
I was taught 30 years ago to roll a shell in through the open ejection port of a side-eject shotgun with the off hand & just run the fore-end forward to chamber a round in an empty gun. In & forward, fast & simple.
Works to return a just-emptied gun to immediate firing condition where you have at least that one shot ready to go while you're topping up the tube. In a sporting gun, not an issue. In a combat gun, could be.

Can't do that with the Ithaca, you have to load one through the bottom into the mag far enough for the latch to grab & hold it, then work the pump to get it out of the mag & up into the chamber.
You could, if you had to, shoot a number of shots singly by direct chamber loading in an 870 faster than you could the Ithaca design.

Scho,
In a tool I might need to save my butt, I couldn't care less about character, I want efficiency. :D
I consider the 870 a more efficient design as a defensive piece.

Denis
 
Young,
I was taught 30 years ago to roll a shell in through the open ejection port of a side-eject shotgun with the off hand & just run the fore-end forward to chamber a round in an empty gun. In & forward, fast & simple.
Works to return a just-emptied gun to immediate firing condition where you have at least that one shot ready to go while you're topping up the tube. In a sporting gun, not an issue. In a combat gun, could be.

Can't do that with the Ithaca, you have to load one through the bottom into the mag far enough for the latch to grab & hold it, then work the pump to get it out of the mag & up into the chamber.
You could, if you had to, shoot a number of shots singly by direct chamber loading in an 870 faster than you could the Ithaca design.
Click to expand...

Speedwise it might be closer than you think, the Ithaca is so much more easier to mag load that it isn't even funny.

I've got a lot more time on the 870, I practice loading drills almost every day, and mine has a burnished mag tube interior, low friction follower and I replaced the Police mag spring with a regular one, all to ease loading effort, and I still can't mag load that thing anywhere as fast as my stock old '37.

And anyway, not everyone practices port loading, I'm pretty sure that at least one top defensive shotgun trainer advices against it to simplify the manual of arms and avoid confusion under stress.
 
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