Deer Hunting with a .45 ACP

[Fred-Iowa]

45 ACP is plenty from my experience. I just put a tag on an Iowa buck I shot this morning. One shot from 80 yards , he dropped dead in his tracks. I used a 200 Gr XTP factory load. And the cherry on top is I did it with my Hi-Point FMJ 45 ! Yep a $165 handgun. I have the factory provided ghost ring rear sight mounted.

 

[dzelenka]

A .45 ACP with a 230 gr Golden Saber will work on white tail. With pistol bullets, especially those that don't expand, a flat point, even if it is on a non-expanded hollow point transmits the most energy and kills the best. Also, with handguns, penetration is key.

Semi-wadcutters are not necessarily the best choice. The original Kieth SWC was a good killer because it has a relatively flat point. A better choice than a run of the mill SWC would be one of the LBT designs like the LFN (long flat nose) - deep penetration, good shock transmission, wound channels look like Barnes X bullets made them. Semi-wadcutters designed for the .45 ACP are target bullets with very small meplats. They cut nice holes in paper, but they are not big game bullets.

 

[noob_shooter]

not the greatest round, but can easily kill a deer under 50yards assuming shot placement was accurate..

 

[GooseGestapo]

In Georgia, the case law only supports a conviction for FMJ type ammo. A lead semi-wadcutter, lead roundnose, Hollow point, or soft point would be considered an "expanding" type bullet whether or not it expanded in use.

A .45acp really dosen't kill or affect a target so much as by kinetic energy as expressed by the ft/lbs figure which favors a high velocity bullet. Rather, the momentum figure velocity x bullet weight in grains / 7000 which is a constant converting weight to mass (pounds to newtons). Also know by the Pounds/feet figure.

This latter figure better describes the .45acp which puts it on par with the .243wcf with a 100gr Spt.

I've taken several deer with the .40S&W and 10mmAuto with 155-200gr bullets. Performance under 75yds is on par with the .30/30 and .35Rem rifles. I've also taken deer with a .452" 200gr SWC (Lee copy of H&G #68) in a sabot from a .50cal m/l at ~1500fps. All of the above loads and guns taking over a dozen deer have resulted in only one bullet recovered. That was a ~200lb deer shot front-on with the .50cal m/l load at 40 feet, and the .452" 200gr SWC lodged in the paunch (stomach/rumen) after breaking the spine and taking out approx 3" of it. Penetration was still more than 2'. The semi-wadcutter not so much expands as the front section collapses and "rivets" making more of a round-nose or wadcutter. From the .45acp, it essentially cuts a "cookie cutter" hole through the deer and rapid death if not casused by CNS disruption (cutting the spine) but from the rapid blood loss. One deer I shot with the 200gr SWC was a doe at ~40yds broadside through the heart. As it ran from in front of the smoke plume, it was pumping two streams of blood out of 1/2" holes on both sides. It ran about 75' and leaned as it ran, till it hit the ground on it's side and then went into slow motion running motion, and then quit.... Quite a stunning show.

Shot placement is still the most critical factor.

In Jr. High School, I read the short story by Rudyard Kipling (author of "The Jungle Book" and many other works); called "Riki Tiki Tavi". He recounted the time that his gun bearer left him in the lurch while trying to take a warthog for the dinner table. He was treed by a previously wounded Cape Buffalo and had to spend the night in an accacia tree. He stated he wasn't too worried about a leopard joining him while the bull was beneath him waiting on HIM.
Come morning he used his shoe laces and a safety pin to "fish" his Colt M1911 from the bottom of the accacia tree where it fell from his holster during the rapid ascent of the tree the previous evening. Once retrieved, he used 27rds of hard-ball to disable and eventually put down the Buffalo, which he induced to charge a "scare crow/Matador" he made with his pants and shirt stuffed with leaves and dangled by his shoe laces. He shot downward into the Buff as it passed under him. Eventually several rounds found their way into the buffs lungs as he described the buff blowing blood from it's nostrils as it charged the dummy. After the buff expired, he left the tree, retrieved his rifle (caliber not specified, but I seem to remember him mentioning a .318 Wesley & Richardson, and proceded to go hunting for his "former" gun-bearer.......

I do remember getting an "A" on the book report, however.....

 

[Pigspitter]

I'm a couple pounds heavier than you're average Georgia deer and I'm pretty sure a 45ACP would have no trouble killing me from that range with a good hit. For some odd reason, people seem to think whitetails are as tough as a plate mail covered T-Rex on a PCP binge. As far as Georgia law goes, it's any centerfire cartridge .22 cal or above with expanding bullets.

 

[Kachok]

I am not a fan of auto handguns on deer the OGW "Optimal Game Weight" of the 45ACP is only 68lbs at the muzzle! The 10mm, 44 mag and 357mag are much more suitable if you feel that you have to hunt with a pistol, their OGW is 120lbs and over.

 

[mr.trooper]

The 'formulas' are only worth what stock you put into them. They are in no way empirical, or objective in either their construction or their output.

If I were hunting with a non-magnum handgun, I would go with a hard cast SWC to ensure adequate penetration; especially If I were going to push it to 50 yards or more... but that's just my opinion.

 

[Kachok]

These formulas determine downrange momentum and energy, both of which are critical factors in creating soft tissue damage. If you honestly beleve that there is somthing magical about a .45 APC that allows it to ignore the laws of physics then you sir are delusional. Can a 45 ACP kill a deer...Yes so can a 22LR but I WILL report any such irresponsible behavior to the local game warden if I ever see it. I would rather someone hunt them with a 223, the .45 lacks energy/momentum for reliable quick kills. I have never seen someone dumb enough to try one on deer in person but I have seen people try them on hogs with poor results. Save your 45 for the range and leave it at home when you are after liveing breathing targets it just does not have the punch needed for reliable kills.
BTW 9mm FMJs penatrate hog skulls much more easly then 45s do.

 

[black timber]

How long is the barrel on that thing? I think you could use a SWC load and get some pretty impressive velocity with a .45 rifle. Have you chronoed that thing?

 

[black timber]

Hey ONLY are you using the Cx4 storm .40? That was my original post at the top that the .45 I am using is a "Rifle" chambered in a pistol caliber. I could go with a lighter bullet to get over 1000 FPS.

Thanks

How long is the barrel on that thing? I think you could use a SWC load and get some pretty impressive velocity with a .45 rifle. Have you chronoed that thing?

 

[black timber]

Did a quick google check and it seems the .45 doesn't gain much in a rifle ,makes sense. I wonder if you could use a slower than normal powder to take advantage of the bbl length? Buffalo Bore claims a .45+p 255 hard cast @ 960fps out of a 5" bbl. Even if the rifle only gained 30-50 fps with that load, a .45 cal. 255 hard cast @ 1000 fps should be fine to 50 yards or so, I bet it would be through n through on a broadside. I wouldn't use any self defense ammo.

 

[Kachok]

You could work up loads that made a few more fps by using more slightly slower burning powder (compressed load), but truth be told even with a thousand fps I don't think the 45 is an ethical hunting firearm, many states do not allow it by law, 10mm, 357s and 44 mags usualy are allowed though because they carry higher energy and momentum then any 45ACP load.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Orignally posted by Kachok
These formulas determine downrange momentum and energy, both of which are critical factors in creating soft tissue damage. If you honestly beleve that there is somthing magical about a .45 APC that allows it to ignore the laws of physics then you sir are delusional. Can a 45 ACP kill a deer...Yes so can a 22LR but I WILL report any such irresponsible behavior to the local game warden if I ever see it. I would rather someone hunt them with a 223, the .45 lacks energy/momentum for reliable quick kills. I have never seen someone dumb enough to try one on deer in person but I have seen people try them on hogs with poor results. Save your 45 for the range and leave it at home when you are after liveing breathing targets it just does not have the punch needed for reliable kills.
BTW 9mm FMJs penatrate hog skulls much more easly then 45s do.

I don't normally do this (call BS)...but since I've killed a dozen or so deer with a 45acp (a 1911, 4.25" barrel)...I feel the need to set the record straight.

I have pics that are already posted on this and other forums of a 45acp bullet recovered from deer, a 230 grain hollowpoint bullet, all fired from the same pistol (the 1911)...of all the deer I shot while hunting I was only able to recover 1 bullet...a 230 grain Golden Sabre (pictured below), it was fired at a steep downward angle because I was 45 feet above the deer...that bullet entered high on the left shoulder, through the shoulder blade, through a rib (3 inches of rib missing...I have pics), through the lungs, through the lower part of the right shoulder, exited the "armpit" area, re-entered the upper right leg, broke the leg, and was found just under the skin on the far side...I have pics of all of that (it well documented on 1911forum also)

Last year...while feeding the horses I jumped a doe that had an arrow sticking out of her guts, she was weak...but she was doing her best to get away from me so I did the only thing I could do since she was going almost straight away from me...I shot to stop her.

I shot her through the right side of the pelvis from about 20 yards, she dropped like a rock....when I got to her she was about done but not quite, so I finished her with a head shot that exited the back of her neck...I wondered why she had blood coming out of her nose though so I investigated...the bullet that had entered her right hip and went through her pelvis....was found in her left lung. (230 grain XTP @ 830 fps...full grown adult doe, corn fed, appx. 150 lbs live weight)

This is the Golden Sabre...it was in 1 piece when I found it, but fell apart in my hand. Factory load...





I don't have a pic of the XTP that went through the pelvis...I do still have the bullet though, and it looks exactly like this one that was recovered 16 inches deep in wet phone books.



Some say the 9mm penetrates better than the 45....and that is true if you're shooting glass, car doors, block walls....but when it comes to bones, muscle, and blood....the old 45 can do all the penetrating that will ever be needed.

Beartooth also makes a 255 grain cast bullet that can be driven to 950 fps in a full size 1911...that puts it up there with the old 45 Colt loads, I wonder how many deer the ole 45 Colt has laid to rest.

EDITED TO ADD: All were 1 shot stops, no deer went more than 30 yards after being shot....and if you can't hit where you're aiming you don't need to be hunting with a rifle...let alone a pistol.

 

[Kachok]

Hard structure penatration (Like a pigs skull) the 9mm wins, soft tissue penatration the 45 has more momentum so it tends to drive a little deeper (27" with 230gr FMJs). Just like the 17HMR defeating lv 3 body armor, yet it's penatration in soft tissue is poor at best. Hunting with hard cast 45ACP is not legal here, for good reson. There is no good reson to go out into the woods with a 45 when you have a perfectly good rifle that is MUCH more capable of clean kills then any 45ACP bullet. This is not a contest to see who can kill with the most pathetic bullet. USE A REAL GUN. I do commend you for putting a poor wounded deer out of it's suffering, given the same situation I would have done the same, but I would never EVER bring out somthing as puney as a 45 for hunting a living thing, I like quick clean kills way too much. I have never had to track anything I have ever shot in 20+ years of hunting. It was all either bang-flop or 5-20 yard sprints.

 

[roach4047]

The OP mentioned he is considering using a Carbine chambered in 45 ACP. It seems that a lot of people missed the fact that he stated he is considering the use of a rifle. He did NOT state that he was considering using a pistol.

So far as which rounds to consider. I'd take a look at something offered by Buffalo Bore or Double tap. Some of their hotter loads are advertised as follows for the Double Tap:

The fastest 185gr loading on the market! All in a package that is just shy of a +p rating!

Caliber : .45ACP

Bullet : 185gr. Nosler JHP

Ballistics : 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911


And that's out of a 5" 1911 barrel. I imagine it's a good bit more impressive being fired from a carbine. That I believe would do the job very nicely.

They have a number of rounds to choose from but I'd say give them a call and discuss things over...

I like this the best...

This is the heaviest and deepest penetrating 45ACP load available anywhere. Safe for all 45ACP pistols rated for +P. Not recommended for Glock and HKUSP pistols because of the polygonal rifling.. A perfect woods and hunting load for your 45!

Caliber : .45 ACP+P

Bullet : 255gr. Keith Style SWC Hardcast Lead

Ballistics : 875fps - 434 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl.

This would make a great hunting round for the weapon that the OP mentions. I'm not all that familiar with the ballistics side of most ammo but I'd suspect that is would do just as well as a .410 slug gun if not better. Should easily do the job at the distances the OP is considering.

Roach

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The rifle is no more capable of clean kills on a lil ole deer than the pistol...it has more to do with the person doing the shooting.

As Forrest Gump said....thats all I have to say about that (I've told this story enough already...LOL)

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I didn't miss the carbine part of it...but the 45acp gains VERY little from a 16 inch barrel...very little, sometimes nothing...depends on the load...but it is never enough to make a significant difference.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I will add one more thing...something I learned from messing around with 45 Super loads.

Most of the time, more velocity means less penetration...at least with bullets designed for 45acp velocity.

 

[mr.trooper]

These formulas determine downrange momentum and energy, both of which are critical factors in creating soft tissue damage. If you honestly beleve that there is somthing magical about a .45 APC that allows it to ignore the laws of physics then you sir are delusional.

Um... I think you vastly misunderstood me.

I didn't say anything about momentum or energy - those are hard empirical facts, which are easily calculated.

By 'formulas', I was jibbing at things like TKO, M&S number, and OGW, which erroneously attempt to determine a projectiles lethality without even considering shot placement.

I don't have a boner for the 45acp or anything like that. No magic in my eyes.

 

[IdahoLT1]

I will add one more thing...something I learned from messing around with 45 Super loads.

Most of the time, more velocity means less penetration...at least with bullets designed for 45acp velocity.

Uhh....use .452" bullets designed for .454 casull and .460 S&W?

 

[Kachok]

I would like to make a specail note here about the perforance of the flat point solid bullets that many of us are talking about. The myth is that the wound tract is the same at 45-70 speeds and 45 ACP speeds, people assume since it deos not expand that any 45ACP that will shoot through a deer does just as good. This is false, the meplet on the hardcast and flat point solids is a game changer on soft tissue, read "The Mechanics of Terminal Ballistics" and you will see that the difference between 800fps impact and 1400fps impact is HUGE. At 800fps the meplet did not cause a noticable increase in the size of the wound canal it only mesured .50" with a 1400fps impact the wound canal was a huge 1.37". This was tested with a 300gr 44 mag hardcast with a .34" meplet. I stand by my statemant that the .45ACP is not an ethical or practical deer hunting caliber, .357mag/10mm is the practical minimum and 44mag makes alot more sence then that. As hunters it is our responsability to ensure quick kills, and recoverd game. I just do not see the 45 being a practical tool for that purpose.
In the hundreds of ballistics tests I have seen no 45ACP bullet has even done the level of soft tissue damage of a .223 with a controled expansion bullet, and I don't recomand them for deer hunting either.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I would not use one as a rule, but 45 in a slow expanding or soft nose, can do the job (heck even the round nose placed as mentioned below)...50yds be my guess...Ditto on quote...

Shot placement!
Put an expanding HP through the heart, spine, neck = done deal.
Put a LRN low in a lung or something, you might have an archery-type tracking job ahead of you...

Lets look at this Cartridge (that won the west) 44-40

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
200 gr (13 g) lead 1,245 ft/s (379 m/s) 688 ft·lbf (933 J)
217 gr (14.1 g) lead 1,190 ft/s (360 m/s) 682 ft·lbf (925 J)
225 gr (14.6 g) lead 750 ft/s (230 m/s) 281 ft·lbf (381 J)

Hmmm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester

 

[Kachok]

Won the west is one thing, quick ethical kills on game anamals is quite another. If you are the type that beleves that the 45-70 was bang-flopping 2,000lbs bison with body shots at 500 yards there really is nothing I can do to cure you, keep on beleving that just don't ever try it. Those that think the 44-40 was the be all end all deer hunting wepon, well there ain't much I can do for them either, at least it is more effective then a 45 ACP so go right ahead, just get within 50 yards before you shoot like so many of the old timers did. Just ask yourself one simple question, why has the 44-40 all but died out and the 30-30 still is one of the most popular cartrages out there?

 

[Harley Quinn]

Just giving up some information about a comparison of sorts with the OP (45acp) and 44-40 round popular pre 45 ACP competing with the then, 45 Long Colt...

The 30-30 is a full time rifle cartridge...The 44-40 was good for the time frame, it appears...

Not sure about the killing of Bison to be honest Here are the ones used back in the day...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

The 45-70 was a man killer, now it has developed into one that is respected (hunting) if loaded to its max...

Regards

 

[rocky1]

Hard structure penatration (Like a pigs skull) the 9mm wins, soft tissue penatration the 45 has more momentum so it tends to drive a little deeper (27" with 230gr FMJs). Just like the 17HMR defeating lv 3 body armor, yet it's penatration in soft tissue is poor at best. Hunting with hard cast 45ACP is not legal here, for good reson. There is no good reson to go out into the woods with a 45 when you have a perfectly good rifle that is MUCH more capable of clean kills then any 45ACP bullet. This is not a contest to see who can kill with the most pathetic bullet. USE A REAL GUN. I do commend you for putting a poor wounded deer out of it's suffering, given the same situation I would have done the same, but I would never EVER bring out somthing as puney as a 45 for hunting a living thing, I like quick clean kills way too much. I have never had to track anything I have ever shot in 20+ years of hunting. It was all either bang-flop or 5-20 yard sprints.

So in other words you are saying that if I were to shoot you with my puny 45, it wouldn't kill you, assuming that you weigh more than 68 lbs?