Defending the Occupied Home

[Kleanbore]

I sent the following to an extremely select, small group of friends.

Some are anti-gunners. Others nave trained but do not carry. Others sometimes carry but have had little or no training. Some have gained most of their "knowledge" from screen fiction. A few are gun people. A couple are attorneys. There are business persons, music critics, artists, and engineers on the list.

I do not know if any of them will gain any benefit.

Feel free to share this.
____________

Prepare to Repel Boarders​

The subject line is a nautical term, and unless you live in a houseboat or in a house like Peggotty's that was made from a boat, it really doesn't apply here. Perhaps someone can suggest a catchy term about keeping the barbarians outside the gates.

This about the unpleasantness of home invaders.

Let me frame the discussion by starting off with two simple truths:

1. The entirety of the contents of your house is not of such value that you would want to defend them in the gravest extreme, if it were to come to that. Some blowhards may contend otherwise, but anyone who has ever actually taken a life knows that I am right.
2. Only the hopelessly naive will put their trust in 911. A determined person can breach the strongest door before the caller has completed giving their address.

On that first one, we are not speaking about protecting property here. But if someone intends to tie up hubby and murder his spouse or child, the use of deadly force, if it is necessary and possible, would certainly be cricket. The trick is to avoid the need if at all possible.

On the second, the polizei will not be able to intervene timely, unless they happen to be inside having coffee with you at the time. Huron hurone. You have to paddle your own canoe. That's just the way it is.

Some people are sadly shocked when--not if--the police do not even dust for prints unless there has been a rape or a murder.

We have motion-activated cameras here and there. I love watching the raccoons, opossums, foxes, cats, squirrels, and the big moths who get close to the camera. The imagery may prove useful for evidentiary purposes ex post facto, but the cameras will not stop anyone.

What to do, then? It's all here.

ccwsafe.com/resources/home-defense-with-tom-givens/

....and here.

ccwsafe.com/news/in-self-defense-podcast-117-tom-givens-on-home-defense-part-2/

I met Tom Givens in the former Rangemaster facility in Memphis some ten years ago. I was taking a law course there, and he came in and spoke to us. Do not let his down home presence influence your opinion of his intellect.

Tom's company conducted CCW training in Memphis then. When I drove over to find the place, the doors opened and hundreds of students came out after their class sessions. Almost all were African American women carrying their targets.

Tom's DVD Lessons from the Street covers ten real defensive incidents, selected from over fifty, in which his students were involved. All but a couple occurred outdoors. Only two of Tom's students had been killed. They were not carrying at the time.

www.personaldefensenetwork.com/product/lessons-street-dvd/

I have also taken a class with Don West, and I have listened to his analyses of some real appellate cases.

Sobering stuff, huh!

*****
Some of you know this. I have had unwelcome evildoers try to kill me in the house--in good neighborhoods--on three occasions since 1964. Neither the cars in the driveway nor the lights in the house deterred them. These guys were like Liberty Valance--mean suckers, and the point of a gun was one law that they understood.

That, and some very emphatic, industrial grade coaching.....

I have never stopped being extremely grateful that I did not have to pull the trigger.

 

[shafter]

I agree with much of this. I'm not going to kill over property that's in or outside of my home. That being said if I'm in my home there really isn't anywhere else to retreat so once you come through the door most likely there's going to be a fight. A key component of my strategy is that they won't ever make it past my door. A good door isn't easy to breach without tools and even with tools it's going to take a hot minute unless you blow it with explosives which criminals won't be doing. I've breached my share of doors and even a mediocre door with a dead bolt may take a few good kicks before it gives in. People don't seem to understand the importance of having a solid door and keeping it locked. That one step alone will go a long way to make sure no one ever enters your home unwelcome.

I do want to say though that although 911 in and of itself can't save you, it's going to be one of the first things I do after grabbing my gun. Often criminals scan 911 and they'll take off if they hear a call dispatched to the area or sirens. Law enforcement may be 20 minutes out, or a minute down the street. Wherever they are I want them on their way ASAP and I want the 911 recordings to hear me yelling to stay out of my house.

 

[Balrog]

It would never cross my mind to use lethal force if someone broke in on me while I was here because I thought he was trying to steal my TV. In that situation, I do not understand why someone think the bad guy is just there to rob them.

 

[Kleanbore]

In that situation, I do not understand why someone think the bad guy is just there to rob them.

There are a number of possible reasons. Read the linked articles.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I once had a rather disheveled fellow dash through my kitchen door, grab my full coffee percolator and then dash away.
Ah, Portland... .

That's not what I'm trying to defend against.
The 14-year-old crackhead that thought that I had turned in his source or the wanna-be gang-banger that wanted to run off the old gringo next door, I'll prepare to defend against them.
It's a matter of proportion.

 

[Kleanbore]

Lest we get into a debate on it, the issues here are not whom to shoot and whom not to shoot. They are

1. When we are in our place of abode and someone attempts an unwelcome, forcible entry, we may be in danger. We should act in advance to reduce the likelihood, and should that fail, effective defensive action may be necessarily, not to protect our stuff, but to defend ourselves
2. We will be on our own. and
3. The two links take us to a discussion of things to do and of things to not do.

 

[crstrode]

Some of you know this. I have had unwelcome evildoers try to kill me in the house--in good neighborhoods--on three occasions since 1964.

Some of you know this. I have had unwelcome evildoers try to kill me in the house--in good neighborhoods--on three occasions since 1964.

Your definition of a good neighborhood must be different from mine - or perhaps your circle of "friends" just ain't - (friends, that is) . . .

 

[GEM]

I know Tom Givens pretty well. If you can take a class from him do it. If you could go to his Taccon conference, do it. I wish I could still go but I have to stay close to home for personal reasons. He is one of the most knowledgeable folks and trainers in the business. Besides teaching students, he also runs classes for instructors. If I were checking out a local instructor I would to see in that person's resume that they took his classes or the equivalent from other instructors of his ilk. A resume that says - just LEO or combat isn't enough to credential a good instructor. Not that person might not be one - but Givens' classes (and some others) are a pretty good quality guarantee.

The info from Tom that Kleanbore references is excellent and a great read. Tom also has a newsletter.

 

[Kleanbore]

Your definition of a good neighborhood must be different from mine

I don't know your definition, but these neighborhoods were in prosperous residential ares with very low crime rates, not close to shopping areas, not near filling stations., public hosing, or hotels...

The perps came from other places.

Why?

- or perhaps your circle of "friends" just ain't - (friends, that is)...

None of my friends were involved.

 

[Jim Watson]

The perps came from other places.

Why?

Soft targets. Lots of Stuff.

Does anybody have a copy of 'In Gravest Extreme' handy.
I recall Ol' Mas being a bit more hard line ca 40 years ago.
Do I really recall him saying that a nighttime intruder is fair game and you should use your knowledge of your premises to ambush him at the first opportunity?
As Tom G. says, nothing showing to the intruder but eyeballs and gun muzzle.

 

[MEHavey]

The perps came from other places.

Why?

Because (as is said many times in many ways)... you're where the money is.

.

 

[crstrode]

I don't know your definition, but these neighborhoods were in prosperous residential ares with very low crime rates, not close to shopping areas, not near filling stations., public hosing, or hotels...

The perps came from other places.

Why?


None of my friends were involved.

When some folks move from a bad neighborhood to a good neighborhood they lower the standards of both places.

 

[P89DCSS]

Have secure doors that don't open with a single kick.
Have a perimeter camera surveillance system with a dedicated monitor in your main living area and well used rooms.
Have a two way doorbell camera with the app on your smart phone.
Then start your preparations.

 

[hso]

A determined person can breach the strongest door before the caller has completed giving their address.

I wish you hadn't made this demonstrably arguable point. Agreeed that MOST doors can be kicked in. The strongest cannot, requiring tools to get through (and sometimes power tools). MY doors are not going to be breached before the call to 911 is made while a defensive firearm is readied. Most people, probably not, but they can make it so with less than the price of a gun.

Had you said that the police will not respond before a determined person breeches the strongest door I'd have possibly given that a pass.

 

[Kleanbore]

Because (as is said many times in many ways)... you're where the money is.

The question "why" had to do with why Mr. Strode questioned whether the neighborhoods were good ones, but yours is usually a good answer to the question of why perps go to good neighborhoods.

The next question, the answer to which would be useful here, would be what cased them to single out our house. Dunno. We could identify nothing that would distinguish us from other neighboring houses as a desirable target.

In one case, they guy hit several houses on the same block in a couple of days. Broke door frames without using tools. The roar of old window A/C units probably helped down out the sound.

Yep, "where the money is" is to be considered.

 

[W.E.G.]

If they make it into your house, they will have access to all your kitchen knives.

But if you can run them off without shots fired, that's still a better plan. Think about the mess you will have to clean up, even if the cops don't arrest you. I would trade several percolators to avoid that.

 

[Kleanbore]

I wish you hadn't made this demonstrably arguable point. Agreeed that MOST doors can be kicked in. The strongest cannot, requiring tools to get through (and sometimes power tools). MY doors are not going to be breached before the call to 911 is made while a defensive firearm is readied. Most people, probably not, but they can make it so with less than the price of a gun....Had you said that the police will not respond before a determined person breeches the strongest door I'd have possibly given that a pass.

Yes, there was a little hyperbole in my comment about not finishing giving the address before the door is breached. But maybe not very much.

I did not say "kicked in", nor did I mean to imply that tools might not be used.

A couple of years ago, my neighbor, who has reinforced steel doors with well-anchored reinforced frames and with the best locks, mistakenly took all of his keys with him when he left the country. His son was coming in from out of twn. The locksmith would open the door if I gave some ID and signed bunch of stuff, and if they received electronic authorization from my neighbor in Ireland. I was required to witness the entire operation.

After about twenty minutes in the cold wind, I asked the guy how long it would take to break through the door. "we put this in---about three minutes".

After another twenty, he threw in the towel. "He wanted our best, and he got it".

My point was not really about doors. We all know the importance of good doors and windows. It was about relying on 911. We have friends who think that that is a viable strategy.

 

[Jim Watson]

If they make it into your house, they will have access to all your kitchen knives.

Had a case of that in my home town in the 1960s.
He would B&E and first go to the kitchen for a butcher knife.
He would leave it in a prominent location on his way out with portable valuables. Fortunately he did not run into a sleepy occupant. I don’t know if he were ever captured.

 

[Kleanbore]

He would B&E and first go to the kitchen for a butcher knife.

That's scary.

on of the occasions I mentioned, an unarmed man entered the house tailgating someone else. His motive was not robbery. He announced his attention to kill the other guest, and then threatened my mother. I was able to enter the room when he could not grab either of them, and ordered him out. H said he would kill me; he made a weapon by breaking a decorative bottle; he advanced slowly.

I came very, very close to pressing the double action trigger on my S&W Model 39, but he listened to reason and departed.

 

[Tinman357]

KLEENBORE:

Thank you for posting all that. I read both links and Mr Givens nails it on the spot. My own thinking and planning follows his advice almost word for word.

I like his mindset. Well thought out layered security/hardened perimeter and planned response beats a suprise break in anyday.

I got a lot out of that read and will continue to search through his website.

 

[.38 Special]

Soft targets. Lots of Stuff.

Does anybody have a copy of 'In Gravest Extreme' handy.
I recall Ol' Mas being a bit more hard line ca 40 years ago.
Do I really recall him saying that a nighttime intruder is fair game and you should use your knowledge of your premises to ambush him at the first opportunity?
As Tom G. says, nothing showing to the intruder but eyeballs and gun muzzle.

He waffles a bit regarding unarmed intruders, more-or-less arguing that if nothing else, hiding upstairs and calling 911 can save you a lot of grief. The passage you may be recalling has to do with armed intruders. Quoting directly from my own copy: "Shoot him. In the back, if you have to."

 

[Bill_in_TR]

I read both links. There is a lot of common sense there and they gave me some things to think about in my own home. My weak point is the back of the house where we have a large glass door leading out to the deck. Those articles focused only on front door break ins. No mention of whether intruders might look around the house for the easiest access. Breaking the glass makes for easy entry but at least I'll get plenty of noise.

And I do have an early warning system in two dogs that bark at anything outside.

 

[Balrog]

He waffles a bit regarding unarmed intruders, more-or-less arguing that if nothing else, hiding upstairs and calling 911 can save you a lot of grief. The passage you may be recalling has to do with armed intruders. Quoting directly from my own copy: "Shoot him. In the back, if you have to."

Middle of the night, and someone enters my home, not sure I am looking for a weapon before I decide what to do. I would be in fear of my life and those of my family if I found a stranger in my house in the middle of the night, and would act accordingly.

 

[Gun-Reck]

Let me frame the discussion by starting off with two simple truths:

1. The entirety of the contents of your house is not of such value that you would want to defend them in the gravest extreme, if it were to come to that. Some blowhards may contend otherwise, but anyone who has ever actually taken a life knows that I am right.
2. Only the hopelessly naive will put their trust in 911. A determined person can breach the strongest door before the caller has completed giving their address.

Life, Liberty, Property.

Seems Americans are now "blowhards."

What should we call people who try to tell us how to live our lives?

"Tyrant" comes to mind.

 

[Kleanbore]

What should we call people who try to tell us how to live our lives?

No one is telling anyone how to live their lives.

That is simply learned advice regarding the facts of life.

One can, of course, choose to learn them himself, the hard way.