Defense against an active shooter

[Double Naught Spy]

Maybe it's about time we teach skills in school that helps students make it out there in the real world.

Like self defense. Like how to baracade a school door. How to drop and roll if on fire. Like stopping the bleeding on their or a fellow students body.

He double hockey sticks the Israelites do why not us.

LOL, the Israelites were members of a now ancient Hebrew nation. The Israelis teach their people a lot of things. Their country is an on again off again war zone. I don't know why they don't teach combat field medicine to elementary school students. I will ask about that at the next board meeting.

Most of today's kids aren't afraid. Same with alot of parents, they've never faced any type of violent repurcussions for their actions. Never been whipped for disobedience, had their mouth slapped for talking back or had their butt kicked just because they should have known better. They may see it on TV or video but they've never known physical pain as a deterrent. Without fear they simply don't realize the real life consequences that a lack of situational awareness can deliver. It's beyond most people's comprehension that there are real monsters in the world that will destroy them just because they can.

It can't happen to me.

Yep, and at the other end of the spectrum we have a huge group of people that think because they own a gun, they can save the world. Maybe it is because they didn't get brutally disciplined and don't understand the consequences or because they were brutally disciplined and think because they survived it, that they are true warriors.

Self delusion comes from many backgrounds.

 

[herrwalther]

The best way to deal with an active shooter situation is to get everyone out of the building as quickly as possible.
It seems that most of the actual shootings bear this out. Sheltering in place and waiting for rescue is really Not a good option.

9/11 happened when I was in grade school. We were very close to the border and the school implemented a lock down while every TV was on to the news. Even at a young age I noted that a single grenade tossed in our open window would kill or injure close to 40 students. With the shelter in place ideology. Shelter in place should be a last resort if escape is not possible. Seeing kids going out the window in Texas likely kept the body count lower than it was.

What has changed ?

Big one, population density. I went to school in a small town. I didn't see a traffic light until I was almost voting age. In 1960, there were about 179 million people in the US. Today that number has more than doubled. More people in less space, higher crime. Just simple numbers.

Even in the military, if you are not an SF type, you might get to a MOUT unit once a year, and the only even halfway realistic FoF trading you get is MILES, again, maybe once a year.

My unit would do MOUT monthly at least. MILES was trash but most of us had Airsoft guns. It wasn't uncommon to hit the barracks covered in welts when the day was done. When it came to the training schedule, we were pretty fortunate.

 

[entropy]

We didn't have Airsoft then. I did use Airsoft with my younger son to show him the reality of why he was getting killed on Call of Duty when he'd stand out in the open and do mag changes. It was a painful enough lesson that he caught on to, why I sought cover whenever possible. He learned the hard way concealment ain't cover.

 

[Old Dog]

Even in the military, if you are not an SF type, you might get to a MOUT unit once a year, and the only even halfway realistic FoF trading you get is MILES, again, maybe once a year.

That's changed considerably, even started before I retired. I know that over the last few years, some of our tac team guys with recent military experience, including guys who'd just been regular Army infantry, were great resources for training for missions in and around buildings and houses.

And since around 2007 or so, law enforcement (at least in my area) had incorporated active shooter response into all of the (use of) deadly force polices. And every "active shooter kit" for organizations and in patrol vehicles should have such items as door-stops, even chains/locks for door handles, chem-lights (for cleared areas/rooms or potentially hot)

Most of today's kids aren't afraid. Same with alot of parents, they've never faced any type of violent repurcussions for their actions. Never been whipped for disobedience, had their mouth slapped for talking back or had their butt kicked just because they should have known better. They may see it on TV or video but they've never known physical pain as a deterrent. Without fear they simply don't realize the real life consequences that a lack of situational awareness can deliver. It's beyond most people's comprehension that there are real monsters in the world that will destroy them just because they can.

Yes, many of us grew up with corporal punishment and schoolyard fistfights very real parts of our lives.

As far as the monsters, part of the liberal mindset incorporates the notion that everyone is intrinsically good, if they act badly it's because they grew up poor, were victimized when young, just didn't have the privilege or opportunities, or were raised badly by bad parents or only a hard-working single parent who meant well but just didn't have enough time for them...

Some of us have encountered true evil, and we've worked against it while the liberals pretend it doesn't exist.

The problem is that our society has evolved to the point where we only respond to symptoms, not root causes. We blame the guns, not those that would wield them for bad purposes.

Yep, and at the other end of the spectrum we have a huge group of people that think because they own a gun, they can save the world.

Is anyone is this thread displaying this kind of thinking, or were you speaking rhetorically? You did earlier allude to Mr. McCown, who initially confronted the "Tacoma Mall Shooter" and was shot for his efforts after re-holstering his weapon. Is this the type of person in the group of which you are speaking?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Is anyone is this thread displaying this kind of thinking, or were you speaking rhetorically? You did earlier allude to Mr. McCown, who initially confronted the "Tacoma Mall Shooter" and was shot for his efforts after re-holstering his weapon. Is this the type of person in the group of which you are speaking?

You go fishing much? LOL.

As for McCown, he was shot while being a self proclaimed protector of others (his stated personal justification for carrying a gun) who failed miserably at the time of crisis as recounted in the numerous and ever-changing self aggrandizing retelling of his tale.

 

[Old Dog]

You go fishing much? LOL.

Nope, and wasn't looking for any snark in reply, either.

You made a statement about a "huge group of people that think because they own a gun, they can save the world."

I merely asked who you'd be referring to, as I don't know many people such as this.

 

[jeepnik]

I always wonder about these types of threads. How many poster have actually seen any sort of armed confrontation?

 

[James Collins]

I'm interested to see that as well. The average cop doesn't have a fraction of the training needed to solve that problem if the shooter barricades himself. A single officer is basically committing suicide by going through the door alone against a shooter who knows he's coming. Officers need more training on how to breach doors as a team and be provided with the tools necessary to increase their chances, ie shields, flashbangs etc.

Part of me wonders if the officers hesitated due to fear, inexperience, or bad training, or if they were concerned that the active shooter had turned into a hostage scenario. Once the shooting stops and it becomes a hostage scenario things change dramatically. Do you force your way in and risk him killing the kids inside, or do you evacuate casualties and wait for a tactical team and a negotiator? Running to the gunfire is the right response for when the shooter is shooting but what about when it goes quiet?

We need more information before we can pass judgement on if the right or wrong call was made.
Law enforcement needs much more training and tools for how to handle these situations.
Schools should have adequate security ie armed guards, cameras that are accessible by dispatch so officers can have good information while enroute, controlled access points, windows that open from the inside but not the outside, and training for both teachers and students alike on how to appropriately respond.

good points man- and the sad part is by the time the news reports it the “we need the facts” is now lost and judgment is been casted upon us. The media is also the problem

 

[shafter]

good points man- and the sad part is by the time the news reports it the “we need the facts” is now lost and judgment is been casted upon us. The media is also the problem

The media and the public in general, including the majority of firearm owners have no tactical training or experience and therefore don't understand that situations like this are far more complicated than they realize.

 

[herrwalther]

You made a statement about a "huge group of people that think because they own a gun, they can save the world."

I merely asked who you'd be referring to, as I don't know many people such as this.

I'll put my spin on that. I spent my time as a "sheepdog." Armed person to protect the unarmed. I have rushed into buildings with a shooter inside with the sole goal of finding, and killing. Succeeded enough times to get a few "attaboys." Now I see police and military getting put under a microscope for using their firearms to get the job done. Sometimes they are bad shoots, sometimes they are legitimate. Even if the M&P get cleared of wrongdoing, they go through hell to prove it. I have no desire to be in that position. If I am going to use my firearm, it is a last resort. For better or worse, the overly litigious society we have become makes gun owners selfish. The "good guy with a gun" catch phrase is being passively defeated. We are just seeing the change happening very slowly.

 

[citizenconn]

I have too many guns ...

Would you like the address of my FFL to ease your overcrowding problems?

 

[James Collins]

The media and the public in general, including the majority of firearm owners have no tactical training or experience and therefore don't understand that situations like this are far more complicated than they realize.

Agree and yet they all make claims as if they know what they are talking about