Defense with a Blade

[JShirley]

Spurred by some recent threads, I thought a thread on knife fighting might be in order.

Now, I believe the term "knife fighting" is a misnomer. I believe the chances of two individuals, both armed solely with knives, finding themselves in a serious social disagreement with an identically armed foe virtually nil. What is more likely, one may find themselves in a position where a knife may be the only defensive tool one has immediate access to. An example could be, someone assaulted, and taken to the ground, with a pocket blade being the only tool within reach to avoid serious injury or death.

Is it more accurate for us to realize we must practice emergency knifing than knife fighting, as well as practicing responses to attempts at knifing us. Using a knife means one has to close with the opponent. Especially as a defensive user, our tendency should usually be toward the opposite, a tendency to disengage.

There are schools of thought that make much of the "intimidation factor" of certain blades. This is not only ridiculous, it is criminally negligent, especially from those who should know better. Using a knife constitutes lethal force. It should be done only in the gravest extreme, and if one is in immediate fear for one's life, one does not have leisure to wave one's weapon around as though it were a talisman (anymore than one has reason to wave a firearm). IF one only has a knife, or can only use a knife for some reason, it must be used unhesitatingly. To draw a knife without immediate followup is suicide.

If we are facing a knife, and do not have the benefit of firearms, and cannot run for some reason, improvised weapons giving us reach over our attacker should be employed, if possible. Sticks, chairs, belts, projectiles from salt shakers to toaster ovens, anything to dissuade or injure the attacker while keeping us outside of his envelope will work. Going knive vs knife is pretty close to the last thing one actually wants, followed only by no weapon at all, or standing and being punctured without resistance.

Knives are useful tools, as there some tasks that only a sharp blade can perform. If we are placed in a situation where we have no other options, a blade may be more useful than bare hands, but it should be a near-last resort, and if used, should be committed to the fray with all the force one can muster.

Safe Training,

John

 

[George Hill]

This is one reason "The Hunted" is not one of my favorite movies.

 

[Jim March]

My thoughts:

1) Yes, knife-on-knife is extremely rare. It can happen, but it's WAY rare.

2) In urban California areas, it is my experience that various sorts of clubs, both short (hammers, wrenches) and long (baseball bats, golf clubs, heavy canes) are among the most common threats faced. Especially by the various "urban outdoorsman" types (homeless). This is from observation and personal experience. An old golf club used as a cane is common, and make no mistake about what that REALLY is (weapon).

3) If your weapon is a blade, STAY IN MOTION. Every cut, every action should be done together with mobile footwork. There's different schools of thought on where and how to move but "keep moving" works...you're a harder target, and you're more likely to survive that initial surprise when maniac #1 is joined by reinforcements.

4) Speaking of which: there are always more goblins about. Avoid target fixation.

5) My personal opinion: fast-draw matters. In an office environment, I'll switch my IWB carry to where my shirt is fully tucked over it; outdoors or generally around town, I'll tuck my shirt behind it and "sorta open carry" if I'm not wearing a jacket.

6) Where I disagree is on big cutlery. Put simply, haul something large out, and do so quickly, and problems seem to evaporate . That's just a fact. Happened to me four times now, twice with dogs, twice with more upright predators. Now look, this isn't bluffing...you only pull when threatened with lethal force, and with lethal intent. You do NOT bluff, as a bluff may be called. On the other hand, when their "victim" blows up in their face and they run away, hey, that's fine. If that's how it goes down, cool. If not, then THEY are deciding whether or not to die.

The reality is, "chase-offs" are an unplanned yet desirable result of effective self defense....and happen more the more effective the self defense. That means it's not just your weapon they run from - it's YOU. It's your attitude, your mindset, your prior planning which leads to a look of iron determination. THAT is why it works on dogs as well as humans.

Everything you can do to increase that personal confidence ahead of time helps...from training, to practice, to good carry method, to good weapon.

 

[JShirley]

Jim,

I agree that a good guy unhurt, and not facing legal action is a good result.

I also know of instances where folks "intimidated" someone into blowing them away.

 

[Kjay]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Jim was advising to use the knife soley as intimidation. Pulling a knife should be done only in the gravest circumstances and one should be fully committed on using it. That intimidation results and the adversary takes flight prior to contact is a perfect result.

 

[JShirley]

Wasn't picking any fight with Jim. He knows that.

I suppose I tend to think I "move like wind' or something, so the time between draw and strike is pretty thin.

 

[Dr.Rob]

One thing I learned early on.. and you'd see it pretty often in my youth.. if a guy was going to start something he'd wrap his off hand in a jacket. He'd also likely be wearing a heavy leather jacket.

"Professional" knife fighters (if there is such a term these days) will often use a single edged blade, held blade up as an extention of the arm.. reason being is its easier to get under the ribs that through them. Constant motion is the rule. Sykes/Fairbarn had a lot to say about this
and is an interesting if grisly read.

Chances are most knife vs. knife encounters probably happen in improvised weapon environments (ie prison) but they still can happen.

You will get cut. Even a box knife or short utility razor blade is seriously lethal if it hits the right place.

The interest in martial forms these days has changed the way "fighting" is done ie grip on the blade, choice of blades etc. Honestly without true force on force red suit sparring at full speed.. it's hard to duplicate the "mights" of such an encounter.

Target fixation/tunnel vision happens to the best of us. Even in low stress situations.

One of the best examples I've ever seen of explaining the dynamics of knife fighting is for two opponents to square off with fat sharpie markers. Spar for thirty seconds and count the hits. You'd be amazed at the numbers.

Still it's a cheap and effective tool. Give it a try.

 

[JShirley]

One of the best examples I've ever seen of explaining the dynamics of knife fighting is for two opponents to square off with fat sharpie markers

Oh, yeah. And if you're going to count coup while playing OPFOR, don't ask your Sgt. before dispatching the "enemy" with your red marker.

 

[Jim March]

Ah, another point: if a particular goblin has pulled something OTHER THAN a gun (and it's lethal force), it's a good bet he ain't got a Roscoe on him.

That says NOTHING of his buddies, mind you.

This is again, personal experience and I've NEVER read of an encounter in which a criminal started with a lesser weapon and held a gun in reserve. They just don't seem to DO that. If they have a gun, it'll come out to play before a knife or club.

What else...

What John says about the SPEED of your counter-attack is correct. If they back down, it'll be damned quick. But, let's recall something else: the 21ft equals 1.5seconds travel time thing. In other words, if a guy hauls out a club at 12 foot range, you need to pull cutlery NOW. My draw time is sub-one-second under optimum conditions (where I don't do tuck my IWB) but 12 feet is inside that envelope.

Right?

So I drew while the bum had a large wrench out at 12 feet. He ran away. Note that I had a LOT of reason to think he was solo, and my brother was also present (although unarmed) so my odds of getting a surprise on my six was low.

This pattern isn't uncommon. Criminals will sometimes threaten at more than a pace or two range, but inside 21 feet. At which point, you have the makings of a chase-off because THEY are bluffing when that happens and if you ain't, they're gone. Another variation: you're a clerk at a small store, nut comes in and waves cutlery on the other side of the counter. He's close, but it'll take him a second to cross the counter to get to you. Your move: step back while drawing, intending to nail him while in crossing. I'll bet good money he WON'T cross, he'll run.

What else.

Ah: never get between two parties who still want a piece of each other. Acting to prevent an ASSAULT, or verbally objecting to criminal activity is survivable...getting in the middle of a fight is suicide! You have been warned. Get in the middle, and there is NO WAY you can watch your six. Dead meat city.

I've acted to prevent assaults twice, and in both cases had no need to fear that the victim would turn on me. In one case, a solo victim was knocked down and stomped by four assailants, and was on the ground bleeding from a scalp wound...when I pushed the assailants off, he ran about 25 feet into the next train car back and passed out. I judged correctly there was no fight left in him (remember, I had no way to know whether or not he started it). In the other, a guy and his small dog were being attacked by two large dogs...I drove them off, and the last I saw of him was him yelling thanks as he retreated (I think my knife freaked him a little!).

Come to think, there may have been a third time...store owner was confronting two shoplifting punks, and they started circling to surround him. I said, loudly, "I ain't gonna let this go two on one" (no draw on my part, no weapons in play yet). They gave up their stolen goods. Having said that, and clearly being NOT yet a third based on my age and dress, I could predict that the store owner wasn't a threat to me if it went rodeo.

Now, when one party wins, you can object to or act to prevent the downed party being "finished off". It's not safe, but it's not suicide either. Yelling "IT'S OVER" or "He ain't worth a murder rap" or similar may help, and helps establish you as a peacemaker versus allies of the downed party.

 

[Sunray]

"...Using a knife constitutes lethal force..." The worst of it is there has been some idiot telling people a knife is less lethal than a firearm. I suppose it is too. It takes much more training and physical fitness to defend yourself with a knife than it does a firearm. Training and fitness most of us don't have. If you get into a situation whereby the only way out is a knife fight, you have made far worse tactical decisions than you would have if you had to do so with a handgun.

 

[Balog]

JShirley wrote:

If we are facing a knife, and do not have the benefit of firearms, and cannot run for some reason

I would assume that turning one's back and running from a knife-weilding opponent would be a bad idea under most circumstances.

 

[JShirley]

Well, "too close" would be a reason. A lot of aggressive action is molded from movies and tv, where the attack often starts with brandishing the weapon from well outside engagement distance.

As well, sometimes the brandisher is more concerned with appearing to be tough to someone else than actually fighting, and so brandishes from a distance. If you run, they have accomplished their goals (looking tough while not actually hurting someone or having to close), and you have accomplished yours- you go home.

"Most circumstances" covers a lot of territory. It's a given that people should use some common sense, which is largely what this thread is about.

 

[Soap]

If we are facing a knife, and do not have the benefit of firearms, and cannot run for some reason

My friend was attacked with a knife before. Apparently the blade was out and in use VERY quickly. My friend had the good luck to grab the guy's hand and wrist, thereby effectively controlling the blade (which is extremely hard to do...). He just overpowered the guy until they were both leaning forward, the guy's hand was pinned on the ground with the blade still in it. My friend just used a foot to stomp the hell out of the BG's wrist and hand until he left go of the blade. Once he left go, my friend threw him a beating then ran away. This was a case of not properly avoiding a fight though, but many people don't avoid trouble like they should when they're in high school.

 

[Gray_Fallen]

A knife is a serious tool, as much as the gun and on the same level of force, in my opinion.
I will beat on someone with my cane, or ASP, or Koppo stick, or perrin wallet (an updated coin purse that fastens around the belt and can be loaded with about 2 pounds of change, and then quickly unsnapped for use as a slungshot/blackjack) before I go for my knife, if given that opportunity.
I train hard in un-armed combatives, and in less-lethal tools, to be able to handle threats with level of force below the knife, and without the particular bloodyness of the knife.
But, I also train my knife use hard. I am without the ability to carry a pistol for a couple more years so I have to use other options, like it or lump it.

I agree with what has been said that knife-on-knife fights are verrry rare, to the point that a lot of us spend little time covering them, just enough to get a feel for applying things we already know to those situations.
Facing multiple attackers, an attacker with a serious size weight and power advantage, an attacker who is otherwise armed, or is fueled, thats where people end up really using a knife in self defense.

I've met a lot of people who have very "pretty" ideas of what knife combatives are, that they are duels dancing to and fro with grace and ease, sniping at one another and hollering fancy french words, and even some who think that a single swipe with a knife can stop a determined attacker. I was probably among them at some point in time.
I've lost a lot of my pretty ideas since I started seriously training the blade.
The marker experiment (or doing the same with chalked/lipsticked rubber knives, like those from Cold Steel [my favs]) is a definate eye opener as to the speed and power of a blade, the damage it can inflict and how much dueling it is not.

One of my main principles with everything I do in the areas of contact distance defense, actually physically engaging an opponent, is that if de-escalation has failed and running is not a possibility, I want to be the one controlling the fight, I want to be dominant.
There is a lot of misunderstanding of what this actually means, and what the intent is.
The common conception, and what I've come to feel is a misconception, is that the person being attacked can take the reactionary role, simply reacting to whatever is given him, and will eventually win over his attacker, either by disabling him or dissuading him.
The problem with this lies in that Action ALWAYS beats reaction.
One of my favourite examples of this in this cntext is on James A Keating's Legacy of Steel videos, from Paladin Press - ComTech instructor Rob Langford is talking about a university study (one of the ivy leagues, I forget which) with the top athelites from this school - in a test of reactiont imes the very best scores theyw ere getting were around .25 of a second - Rob then goes on to show how in under a second he can complete a complete "BackCut" sequence with a bowie knife, delivering more than four strikes. Thats about 1.5 cuts for each quarter second, so by the time you reacted to that, he would be cutting you again, and so on and so forth.
Now Rob Langford is arguably not your average street thug - but you cant make those kind of exceptions, you have no idea what training your opponent does or does not have, and no idea of his skill level. You must assume an attacker to be completely on the ball, and treat him as such - because the one you under estimate will be the one who kills you.
An accomplished thug, someone who has been involved in a lot on the street, and maybe gone to jail a time or three, will have experiance hurting people, he will be good at it, at doing it fast and hard so that it cannot be defended against via the normal reactions. Prison is a gladiator school, add that to street experiance hurting people, and you have a very dangerous, very skilled for what he is doing, fighter/killer. You had best bet he can get a knife in your belly more than four times in a second if you give him the opening.
Thats why I want to be in the controlling position, in the role of actor not reactor. This is why, if I have no doubts in my mind that the fight is on no matter what, I will hit first, pre-emptive striking, and why I use forward drive, agressive footwork, and a pushing "self offense".

Does this mean I will start a fight, or continue an attack after my attacker has disengaged or gone down for sure? Not at all.
He is still my attacker, he still wants to kill me/hurt me, and take from me that which is mine (life, liberty, general health, etc.) - if I were to suddenly stop my offensive-defense, he would come at me tooth and tong and tear me a new one for my foolishness, because he is still the bad guy.
Now if he disengages, breaks and runs, KO's, etc. He's no longer an active threat, I dont need to defend myself, so no more pressing the attack.
But in that frame of the fight, when its him wanting to kill me, and me wanting to stay alive - I want to be the one acting, I want him to be forced to react to my actions, I want him being driven backwards so his mind disengages from the fight and starts fighting for footwork to stay upright and freaking out if there may be a fire-hydrant behind him (people dont like to move backwards, it will take your mind away from things to be going backward against your will), and through that advantage I want to stop him from attacking me, make him a completely negated threat, not one that if I stop will be back on my like a rabid psychotic half-breed child of Charles Manson and Cthulu. Also, when he goes down, I am already in motion to get the flock outta there, get to a safe location, treat my wounds (important skill every defensive thinker should have), and make the appropriate phone calls, without fear of his buddies showing up en masse to kick the crap out of me.

I use an aggressive method of knife work based on these principles, either forward or reverse grip - whatever the situation dictates and/or however I get the knife in my hand. Destroy the arms so he cannot use weapons against me, hacking chops or hooking shearing actions that cut to the bone at the same time as pulling offline, so that I can establish a thrusting corridor and set to work disconnecting his vitals from his nervous system.

A lot of people believe you can target specific muscle groups etc. and make him a non-moving but still alive person, in the heat of a fight. I disagree, adrenaline, fear and anger turn you into an animal - your coordination goes down, you tunnel vision, you are a gross moving survival fixated beast - you gotta workw ith what you have. What you have is not the time, clarity or fine motor skill to feintly hack at this or that tendon on the underside of the arm three inches below the shoulder.
A lot of people also seem to believe that exsanguination(bleeding to death) is the way to stop an attacker, when using a knife. Bleeding out takes a looong time, and there is still a lot of fight left in a man with arterial bleeding.
You need to disconnect the CPU (Brain) from the vitals, either at the cervical spine (hard if you dont have a heavy blade), or by taking the vital organs offline. Your end goal is to stop the blood from going round and round, or the air from going in and out, or both. Stop vital functions so oxygen is either not getting in, or not being delivered throughout the body - body weakens, begins to go toxic, fight leaves him, brain dies. Its over.
A knife, like a gun, is a lethal force tool - I think anyone who thinks its not is kidding themselves - and it need to either be applied as such or not applied at all.

If he breaks, runs, passes out, or freaks and flee's at the sight of the knife, wonderful. But it is incidental, it cannot, should not, be your main goal - its not a realistic one IMO.

If he has a knife, use a big stick, run away, shoot him, something, but dont go knife on knife. If you have to, dont mess around with a disarm, destroy his weapon arm immediately, you cant do anything until you kill the weapon arm - make it a useless piece of meat and then work on the rest of him. Same for any other weapon actually, until he doesnt have or cant use that weapon, it should be your main concern.

 

[JShirley]

Same for any other weapon actually, until he doesnt have or cant use that weapon, it should be your main concern.

Morgan, you know better. The tool is useless without a wielder. One of our favorite tricks, when I was training at BAD, was to get someone overfocused on our knife, then nail them with our free hand. Try defending against a blade when your head is spinning! On the other side of the equation, if you can hit your knife-wielding attacker in the head w/ a brick or heavy rock, it doesn't matter if he still holds the knife...if he's unconscious.

Action ALWAYS beats reaction.

You HAVE to take distancing into the equation. The defender has that .25 second, if there is enough space for the attacker to cross. If the attacker makes the mistake of "staging" from inside that bubble, he gets cut. If he stays outside it, the time required to cross it, gives the defender time to react. Cut them a few times about the arms, with their weight driving your blade into them, and see if they're still skippy about fighting. (Assuming, AGAIN, that you can't improvise some weapon to attack them while remaining out of their range.)

You have said a lot I do agree with, though.
Another good training aid for those of us who sometimes practice with wooden knives, is a sleeve made of PVC insulator covered with 100 MPH tape, so we can use our wooden knives for safer force on force. (Eye pro also necessary.) You can learn a lot from pain...

John

 

[LawDog]

Something I have noticed from interviewing those who have survived a knife attack, is that most of them didn't know they were in a knife fight until they were on the ground, bleeding.

It may just be the culture around here, but a blade tends to be a surprise weapon.

The exception seems to be women. In my experience, a woman will show a knife in order to intimidate a man into retreat.

In man-on-man fights, I see a lot of cases where a critter will start an unarmed fight with a victim, the critter thinking he can beat the victim easily.

Things don't quite go the way the critter intended and the the victim winds up on top and starts beating the ever-loving Alpo out of the critter.

The victim is pounding away, thinking, "Hey, I'm winning!", just before feeling a sudden burning pain. The critter wiggles out from under, and vamooses with his vatos before the 5-0 shows up, leaving the victim spitting blood and wondering what the hell just happened.

If you really want to drive a knife-fencing instructor nuts, hide a red knife or trainer in the front of your waistband, situated for easy access.

Several times during an evening of instruction, walk up to the instructor and clap him on the shoulder or shake his hand.

During one of the times, instead of shaking his hand or clapping his shoulder, reach up and smack the side of his neck, fingers curled around the back of his neck. Jerk his neck and head towards you, while drawing the knife with your other hand and stabbing him in the belly once.

Twice, if you're feeling lucky. Then push off and walk quickly away.

A vicious variation is when you are approaching on your attack run, hold out your hand for a friendly handshake, and when he instinctively reaches for your paw, drop your weight about six inches while making a feint towards his groin.

A the same time with your other hand, draw the knife from concealment and cut across the side of his suddenly exposed neck/carotid/jugular.

Walk quickly away as before.

That tends to be a knife fight around here.

LawDog

 

[JShirley]

Yup. Knifing.

This is just one of many reasons why it's wise to train to get offline of an attack, instead of just blocking...

 

[Gray_Fallen]

Excellent point, John - you got me on that one.
Took too long to write my post and finished it off in a hurry and wasnt tracking what I was saying right. Weapon fixation is very bad.
I'm a fan of things that put the other guy between a rock and a hard-place, he goes for something other than my weapon and gets hit, or he goes for my weapon and with something deceptive that takes my weapon off line of his attack, but returns the business end to him, he gets hit anyway. And thats what I was thinking of, except I wasnt taking it far enough, if I can bait with a tool, so can he.

I have a problem often visualizing range with knives, and it seems when I get to taking after someone with a rubber knife it ends up pretty close pretty fast. I stay moving, but dont end up at much more than a step away, if that, when it comes down to it. The guy trying to work against what I am doing, his off hand moving, mine moving, working him with my blade, it all seems very close and not distancing itself.
Also I tend to think of an attack being a real close thing, guy comes up and wants to beat you down he doesnt want to duke it out with you, he wants to do what I was talking about before, get up in your space, push you backwards and down and not give you a chance, literally beat you down, or stab you down, whatever. If that happens I want to take that away from him, be able to respond quickly and violently with a reaction that derails his forward press, and lets me start mine, so he doesnt have opportunity to really attack me or hurt me before I can neutralize him or at least make headway on that. In close, I want that drivng advantage, the "forward drive".
If I've got a guy who wants to dance about things, might be different, but it seems an awful lot like dueling, and that doesnt strike me as a criminals MO of choice really.
Like I said... I just cannot really visualize that much range in this sort of conflict. Perhaps I lack the sparring experiance, or am not getting something, but I just dont really see it outside of a dueling type situation.

 

[JShirley]

If your attacker is committed enough, and willing to take damage as well, you will get cut, and you will probably die, if you cannot stop him outside contact distance.

You're right.

It's sobering to see how fast someone can overwhelm another, if he just doesn't care if he gets cut, as well.

Training knife vs knife isn't something I've devoted a lot of time to. Usually, it's knife vs open hand or other weapon, with both sides getting a turn to attack and defend. (This can be very enlightening. After ASP qual, some years ago, I showed a much larger forum member how a decent knife wielder could hurt him, even when he already had his ASP out. I think I was at least 3 out of 5. Basically, the further away we can keep a knife wielder from us, the better. SHOOT HIM IF YOU CAN.) We all have to make the most of our strengths. If Morgan is strong like ox, he needs both train to be fast and light (on his feet), as well as know how to get the most out of his size and strength.

John is short like stump, so he needs to concentrate on both keeping power in strikes, and using his natural agility advantage over larger foes.

 

[Gray_Fallen]

Big strong like Russian bear, and smart like tractor!

I guess thats what I am visualizing more than anything, is a commited attacker who wants to get in and get me, without concern for his own well-being, or without feeling the knife (fueled, just really p*ssed, etc.).
Or in a multiple attacker scenario especially, where they are just beating on you, and dont realize you have a knife, with a lot of closeness - and I end up with the want to drive the first guy I get my hands on into the ground like a post hard and fast, so I can either make an opening to run, or deal with whoever is next before one of them does stick me in the back.

I need to get with my training friends and little more and do some more actual going at one another with the marker, or the rubber knife, instead of doing flow drills (they have their place to develope and reinforce your foundations, but there comes a time to move on into the non-regimented training and do less flow drill).

 

[Guyon]

Thanks guys. This thread is enlightening. I try to instill some of the same ideas when I see misplaced bravado by "tactical" youth over at Bladeforums. I don't do it quite so well as many of you with more real-world experience though.

This thread also makes me even more adamant about packing a gun at all times.