Definition of "Carry"

[TomVA]

I am not a lawyer but enjoy reading laws and court cases, especially those related to firearms, just for general knowledge and interest. With respect to carrying a concealed firearm, I find some laws refer to “carries about his person” or “carries on or about his person” and the case law seems to consider “about” to include readily available or within arm’s reach. One law I read today, however, is less clear. The law starts out with:

Virginia Code § 18.2-308.012. Prohibited conduct.
A. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

In this case the law only states “carrying” as opposed to carrying on or about a person. Does this mean the gun must be physically on or in direct control of the person? More specifically, would it apply to a gun secured in a glove box or center console of a personal car?

I don’t take illegal drugs and never drive intoxicated, but the term “under the influence” is rather subjective and heavily influenced by an officer’s observations and perception, and so may affect people who had one glass of wine with dinner at a restaurant.

I have never been charged with any crimes and am not seeking legal advice, just some clarification for my own edification on the definition of “carry” and its distinction from “carry on or about”.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A useful answer to the OP’s question will require case law research.

 

[1942bull]

The word “carry”or carrying is most likely defined at the beginning of the statute. Generally laws specify definition of the term used in the law to pre-resolve such questions.

 

[redcon1]

It's a good question that I have pondered more than once. It seems gray and I don't like gray areas. What I have come up with is that this is why it's worth it for your spouse to have a CCW permit too. She becomes the designated driver and the designated gunhaver if you decide to imbibe. It is extremely rare for me to drink in public so this almost never becomes an issue. 99 times out of a hundred, I am the designated driver and carrier and she gets to enjoy a margarita or two at the restaurant and I'm fine with that. I prefer carrying to drinking and I would never become intoxicated in public. The rule is though, only one of us ever gets to drink in public.

 

[5whiskey]

A useful answer to the OP’s question will require case law research.

Unfortunately, as I am certain that you are all too familiar with Frank, there are a lot of lower level offenses that never have case law clearly define them. Or if there is case law it only defines one aspect. Sure, there has been SCOTUS rulings with profound effects over petty misdemeanors... but that is not the norm. Case law is more likely to derive with laws that subject the violator to more severe punishment than misdemeanors. There are tons of misdemeanors still on the books in my home state where I read it and think ¨yeah SCOTUS would never go for that in this day and age¨ but it´s still valid... and often as unclear and vague as the OPs observations on VAs ¨carry under the influence¨ law.

I understand state appealate courts are supposed to clarify said matters, but truth is they often do not.

 

[Frank Ettin]

…I understand state appellate courts are supposed to clarify said matters, but truth is they often do not.

True enough. But the less on-point case law there is the less certain one will be about how a court will address the question. And the less such legal authority there is the less useful any answer will be.

The absence of case law doesn’t mean that you get to decide the question for yourself. It’ll still be up to the judge, but lacking case law it will be that much harder to have a good idea how a judge might be likely to rule.

 

[5whiskey]

True enough. But the less on-point case law there is the less certain one will be about how a court will address the question. And the less such legal authority there is the less useful any answer will be.

The absence of case law doesn’t mean that you get to decide the question for yourself. It’ll still be up to the judge, but lacking case law it will be that much harder to have a good idea how a judge might be likely to rule.

I guess that was my point. The OPs questions may not have concrete answers, depending on relating definitions in the Statutes and any case law (or lack thereof) pertaining to the said offense. In my state at least, there usually is a definition for terms like ¨under the influence" as it relates to certain offenses. If it is not defined earlier in that statute, the law will frequently reference another statute that previously defined the term. Some of the older offenses written in the 1950s and earlier were not always quick to define everything. I guess they felt like they knew exactly what ¨under the influence¨ was back then. While I am not in VA, I have never seen ¨carrying¨ defined to exclude the lungable area of a motor vehicle when the driver is in control of it. OP my advice would be to not carry in public after consuming any alcohol or drugs. Carrying would include having a firearm within the passenger compartment of the vehicle you are operating. Locked glove boxes, in some states and some circumstances, might be safe or might not be.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I am not a lawyer but enjoy reading laws and court cases, especially those related to firearms, just for general knowledge and interest. With respect to carrying a concealed firearm, I find some laws refer to “carries about his person” or “carries on or about his person” and the case law seems to consider “about” to include readily available or within arm’s reach. One law I read today, however, is less clear. The law starts out with:

Virginia Code § 18.2-308.012. Prohibited conduct.
A. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

In this case the law only states “carrying” as opposed to carrying on or about a person. Does this mean the gun must be physically on or in direct control of the person? More specifically, would it apply to a gun secured in a glove box or center console of a personal car?

I don’t take illegal drugs and never drive intoxicated, but the term “under the influence” is rather subjective and heavily influenced by an officer’s observations and perception, and so may affect people who had one glass of wine with dinner at a restaurant.

I have never been charged with any crimes and am not seeking legal advice, just some clarification for my own edification on the definition of “carry” and its distinction from “carry on or about”.

Just on the subject of locked glove box, IIRC in Cali if you don't have a carry permit and wish to transport a firearm in your car it has to be locked up unloaded and inaccessible, so the trunk is the safest place for compliance. I guess if you had some kind of gun safe bolted down in a location not reachable while driving that would be OK.

 

[Frank Ettin]

….I guess if you had some kind of gun safe bolted down in a location not reachable while driving that would be OK.

Maybe, and maybe not. I haven’t seen any case law on the question.

But note that by statute neither the glove box nor the center console is a locked container for the the transportation on firearms.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Maybe, and maybe not. I haven’t seen any case law on the question.

But note that by statute neither the glove box nor the center console is a locked container for the the transportation on firearms.

I can't believe I omitted to clearly state that the glove box doesn't count. Center console I forgot about, but my whole point in making the post was to say the glove box isn't a "locked container".

 

[TomVA]

In Virginia one can keep a loaded handgun in the center console or glovebox of their personal vehicle without having a CCP. The compartment must be latched but it is not required to be locked.

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/18.2-308/

See exception C8 to law prohibiting concealed carry which states:

"Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel"

And interpretation of "secured" by VA Court of Appeals here:

https://www.vacourts.gov/opinions/opnscvwp/1200165.pdf

 

[CapnMac]

Frank--once again--is on point here.
There's not going to be one answer, as each State defines "carry" (and "bearing") uniquely.

Ok, in my cursory examination of VA code, they have not made that many Definitions a matter of the Code.

 

[TomVA]

Frank--once again--is on point here.
There's not going to be one answer, as each State defines "carry" (and "bearing") uniquely.

Ok, in my cursory examination of VA code, they have not made that many Definitions a matter of the Code.

I also could not find a definition of "carry" in the VA code. I was just wondering if there could be a reason that they just used "carry" in this law and left off the "on or about" that they used in some other laws.

 

[CapnMac]

I was just wondering if there could be a reason that they just used "carry" in this law and left off the "on or about" that they used in some other laws.

Frank and our other JD wil lbe better qualified to answer.
I have this recollection that words not defined in Code are to use their "common" denotations (and not connotation). Which then is further defined by case law.
But, I could have that wrong, too.
I suspect that, in the case of Virginia, a person would, as Frank tells us, probably need a great deal of case research.

Language is a slippery thing in mere common use it's use in law wants more precision--and there's the rub of it.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

Maybe, and maybe not. I haven’t seen any case law on the question.

But note that by statute neither the glove box nor the center console is a locked container for the the transportation on firearms.

Lotta new gun laws recently in Virginia. So case law is “ evolving “. I suspect i am gonna try very hard to not be the test case if i can help it. Too much depends on where in state you are as to how the police are gonna approach a situation. It should not matter but in fact it often does.

 

[aaaaa]

Maybe, and maybe not. I haven’t seen any case law on the question.

But note that by statute neither the glove box nor the center console is a locked container for the the transportation on firearms.

So if one has a pickup truck they can't just put it in the bed. would you have to have a locking tool box in the bed?

Also I assume if it is locked in the trunk, the ammo can also be in the trunk.

 

[TGW1979]

I am not a lawyer but enjoy reading laws and court cases, especially those related to firearms, just for general knowledge and interest. With respect to carrying a concealed firearm, I find some laws refer to “carries about his person” or “carries on or about his person” and the case law seems to consider “about” to include readily available or within arm’s reach. One law I read today, however, is less clear. The law starts out with:

Virginia Code § 18.2-308.012. Prohibited conduct.
A. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

In this case the law only states “carrying” as opposed to carrying on or about a person. Does this mean the gun must be physically on or in direct control of the person? More specifically, would it apply to a gun secured in a glove box or center console of a personal car?

I don’t take illegal drugs and never drive intoxicated, but the term “under the influence” is rather subjective and heavily influenced by an officer’s observations and perception, and so may affect people who had one glass of wine with dinner at a restaurant.

I have never been charged with any crimes and am not seeking legal advice, just some clarification for my own edification on the definition of “carry” and its distinction from “carry on or about”.

Hello. As a concealed firearms carrier for the last 20 years.. you know I don't make the law and it's not up to me to interpret it for anybody else but the way that I interpret that is like so.. if you have a firearm within your reach that you have access to whether it's locked up or not and you're under the influence of something outside of your home.. you probably may want to reconsider what you're doing. I wouldn't push it. It probably depends entirely on who it is regarding law enforcement that you're dealing with. Even if they can't make a crime stick some police officers can be douchebags and take you down anyway or well try to take you down and make your life a living hell for a little while. Honestly I believe that if anybody's enjoying alcohol or well I guess any other drug.. they probably should not be anywhere near Firearms generally speaking. As a very very adamantly responsible firearms on and I'm a stickler when it comes to safety and people making stupid choices when it comes to firearms and weapons in general.

 

[patmccoy]

The Virginia Code § 18.2-308.0... sections all deal with "carrying", while the 18.2-308.1.. sections all deal with "transporting", so the legislature obviously considered them different. As there seem to be no definitions of either, it is back to Frank's reply of finding relevant case law.

What you do prior to that comes down to "do you feel lucky".

 

[TomVA]

Thanks all for your input. I agree these terms are not well defined and would need to be interpreted by the courts based on case law. That's reality, but still unfortunate since a clear understanding of the law guides behavior. I guess if the law makers tried to address every detail and circumstance the bills would become books, but with a bit more effort in clarifying their intent they could make things a little easier for both the courts and the citizens.