Developing .243 varmint load - which way to turn?

[JFrank]

Ok I just wanted to be clear on what you saying and obviously I was not. I see all types of load development types and personally I think they all work fine just a different way around the barn.

Anyway my vote is to change components..

 

[barnfrog]

Here's the latest development in my ongoing saga for anyone who's interested. I think I outsmarted myself yet again.

I loaded up five rounds each of 40.0 grains of Varget at 0.080" off the lands and 42.0 grains of Varget at 0.050" off the lands to see if either would repeat. As expected and as shown in the top of the first picture, neither one did.

In anticipation of them both being duds, I loaded 10 groups using H4895 from 36.0 to 39.0 grains. I only got to shoot eight of the groups because the wind was picking up and I was running out of time, but the results weren't a whole lot better than the Varget.




There are a couple groups just under an inch, and the centers of the 36.0 and 36.3 grain groups are about the same vertically, so I'll probably load five rounds of those two and see if either repeats. But I suspect neither of those will pan out either, and I'll try some groups with IMR4350 which I maybe should have done in the first place. I thought the lighter bullets might like the faster burn rate, but maybe my thinking was unsound. If the 4350 groups hold no promise, I'll have to conclude one or both of the following:

1. These bullets don't shoot well in my gun;
2. A mediocre shooter using a factory rifle can't be expected to print sub-MOA groups with any degree of consistency.

Regardless of the results, I'm enjoying the process, learning what works, getting in more trigger time than ever in my life and having fun shooting.

 

[murf]

follow-through is important in all shooting endeavors. for consistency, i suggest staying down on the rifle and watching the cross hairs come off the target after the trigger is pulled. i'm being a bit forward here, but most people don't consider this step in the shooting process when shooting a benched hipower rifle. disregard if i assume incorrectly.

luck,

murf

 

[barnfrog]

Any advice is appreciated, murf. I think I'm following through on my shots, but oftentimes what we think to be true turns out not to be. I suppose one simple thing to do would be to set up my phone to record my shooting form to see what I'm really doing.

 

[Kingcreek]

I never could make my Winchester perform with light varmint weight bullets. It is such a tackdriver with 100 gr SPs that I just shoot the varmints with those.

 

[JFrank]

D

 

[barnfrog]

IMHO .....The combination of component s are not happy, this rifle is horribly out of tune' if you see something to hang your hat on cool but I would call no joy and move on.

If I may be so bold as to impose on your generosity of time, what in particular tells you they're out of tune? Is it the seeming randomness of the groups, as opposed to at least some sort of progressive shrinking or growing as charge weight changes? Or is it more that none of them are much under an inch? Or is it something completely different?

And lastly, when you suggest moving on, are you just saying don't bother with any more H4895 groups, or suggesting I give up on these bullets entirely without trying them with IMR4350?

Thanks for the continued input.

 

[JFrank]

Sir im not trying to be a know it all or any of that stuff a. Running a really light bullet might be tough, here is nosler Info btw.

Tell me to shut up if you want im just trying to answer the question. With H4895 you need to add some powder 36 to 39 gr is a way low charge.

 

[barnfrog]

You are not coming across as a know it all to me. You know more than I do, and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I am absolutely not asking you to shut up, but please let me know if I am becoming a pest.

The Nosler data is interesting. Sierra's load data shows 38.4 as the max load of H4895 for both the 60 grain HP and the 55 grain Blitz King. I went up to 39 because Hodgdon shows 42 grains as max. I still have the last two groups to shoot, so maybe things will start to come together with those two. If they don't show any pressure signs I could keep working up to the max Hodgdon lists.

I was under the impression that there are nodes at lower charge weights as well as those in the upper end of a powder's range, and I thought a three-grain spread would be enough to cover at least one of them even if I wasn't near max. Am I off base?

 

[Blue68f100]

What is the twist rate on your barrel? I've had barrels with too fast of twist rates causes the bullet to wonder. Even some blow up in mid air if pushed too fast. The 0.3 gr step should be fine. I normally go in 1% steps which in your case near 0.4 gr, so all is good there.

With Sierra data I always start out with there recommended OAL if I'm using their bullet. It has always got me close. When your looking at data you need to look closely at what was used in there testing. This can have a big impact on charge and OAL.

It can be frustrating at times, but be patient.

On a side not. Has any thing been done to the gun? I've had scopes shoot random groups more than 1 time. If the gun shoots factory ammo, (most of my guns have never had a factory round through it) then you could rule out the scope. The last scope I had that went bad was a Nikon. Nikon ended up replacing it with a new one. Something had shaken loose internally.

 

[JFrank]

Ok let's stick with H 4895, Nosler says 43 gr is Max also 88% compressed so you should be ok to load up to that and .3 beyond
Starting with 3 of each- personally I would load magazine length but that's for you to decide.
43.3 red
43.0 black
42.7 green
42.4 blue
Get some Sharpie permanent marker, color the ogive so you can track them later on the white paper then shoot at one point of aim in round robin or per color in decent conditions of course and at a reasonable pace. You can translate/interpret the target easier in an overlaid format. You connect the colored holes for evaluation.
If you have a 200 yard range then use it, otherwise 100 will have to do.
Take a wind flag or hang toilet paper from a tree branch and note any stiff bolt lift.
Report back
Hope this helps you
J

 

[red rick]

You are putting in the work for sure . You might find that your rifle does like that grain bullet . I have read that you seated them .050 to .080 off the lands . I would try .040 to the lands if they will fit your magazine . If you have already done that , I would try a heavier bullet . I am getting ready to sight my .243 in . I am starting with factory 80gr ammo . This is a new caliber for me and I don’t have the components yet for reloading it . I am interested in your results and testing .

 

[barnfrog]

What is the twist rate on your barrel?

Barrel is 1 in 10 twist.

With Sierra data I always start out with there recommended OAL if I'm using their bullet. It has always got me close. When your looking at data you need to look closely at what was used in there testing. This can have a big impact on charge and OAL.

Sierra's listed OAL would result in the bullets being seated quite shallowly in the case neck, so I tested a few increments deeper and 0.050" off the lands shot best.

Has any thing been done to the gun? I've had scopes shoot random groups more than 1 time. If the gun shoots factory ammo, (most of my guns have never had a factory round through it) then you could rule out the scope.

Gun and scope are about a year old and are in factory condition. I haven't shot any factory ammo in the gun since I started reloading, but it would be a good idea to check that it's still shooting some known loads the same as it did previously. I'll check that before I shoot my next groups.

 

[barnfrog]

Ok let's stick with H 4895, Nosler says 43 gr is Max also 88% compressed so you should be ok to load up to that and .3 beyond
Starting with 3 of each- personally I would load magazine length but that's for you to decide.
43.3 red
43.0 black
42.7 green
42.4 blue
Get some Sharpie permanent marker, color the ogive so you can track them later on the white paper then shoot at one point of aim in round robin or per color in decent conditions of course and at a reasonable pace. I can translate/interpret the target easier in an overlaid format. It will look something like this when we connect the colored holes for evaluation.
If you have a 200 yard range then use it, otherwise 100 will have to do.
Take a wind flag or hang toilet paper from a tree branch and note any stiff bolt lift.
Finally
Report back
Hope this helps you
J

Thanks, Jim. Awful nice of you to continue the coaching and analysis. I usually color my bullets by group, mainly in case I spill them (I'm a bit clumsy at times), but also in case a shot drifts so far off it could get confused with another group.

39 grains to 42 is a big jump, so I'l work up to it. Maybe I'll bump into a node along the way. If we get some relatively calm winds I'll hopefully get these shot this weekend. 100 yards is going to have to do for now.

Not sure about going all the way out to mag length, only because of how little of the bullet shank will be in the case neck. 0.020" off the lands will give me about two thirds of the bullet diameter in the neck, and I know that length will fit the magazine. I'll try that and write off my earlier seating depth testing for now.

 

[JFrank]

No worries mate, 39 gr is only 80% compressed' so that's a lot left in the boiler room. Whatever seating depths your comfortable with is fine for now as those are harmonics. Just get one point of aim for easy evaluation ill help you read it

 

[barnfrog]

You are putting in the work for sure.

It's all grist for the mill. As frustrating as it can be, I think load development is quite interesting. It's the tinkering and tweaking that's fun

I am getting ready to sight my .243 in . I am starting with factory 80gr ammo . This is a new caliber for me and I don’t have the components yet for reloading it.

Would you like some Sierra 60 grain Hollow points?

Seriously, if you need brass or bullets PM me and I'll see what I have that you might be able to use.

 

[red rick]

I have 2 boxes of factory ammo , so I will be good on brass after I shoot them . I just can’t find powder and not a good choice on bullets either . Thank for the offer though .

 

[barnfrog]

Here's the latest. Arrived at the range half an hour before dawn to set up and take advantage of the calm winds. It was worth it because there was hardly a breath of wind. My flagging tape barely moved the whole time, so I think it's safe to eliminate wind as a factor on the resulting groups.

Checked the torque on the scope ring screws, and all are still at 18 inch-pounds, so that doesn't appear to be an issue. After setting up I fired a four-shot group of a known load through a clean barrel as foulers and to see if they still shot as they did previously. Group was under an inch, which matched previous performance so I don't think the gun or scope have been knocked out of whack.

Worked up from 39 to 42 grains of powder (H4895) in single shots at half-grain increments just to make sure I wasn't going past max pressure. No pressure signs all the way up to that point. After that I fired four groups of three rounds at 42.4, 42.7, 43.0 and 43.3 grains, shooting all at the same POA as instructed. (I must say I don't like shooting groups this way, but I can see how they would be much easier to work with at 200 yards because they'd be dispersed a bit more.) Groups were again somewhat disappointing, but shooter error has to be considered as a possible significant factor. At any rate, here's the target, with some post-range artwork added.



Groups are color-coded as follows, with group sizes noted in parentheses: Blue = 42.4 (1.38"); Green = 42.7 (1.87"); Grey/black = 43.0 (1.44"); Red = 43.3 (1.58"). The stars indicate where Gordon's Reloading Tool calculates the group centers.

Ejector mark was slightly more pronounced on one of the 43.3 grain rounds, but the other two looked the same as all the other groups in every other way. No primer cratering or flattening. Didn't feel any difference in bolt lift, so I am fairly sure we have not reached max pressure yet although probably getting close.

I am inclined to think that at least some of the horizontal stringing is me, but that's the toughest one to quantify. All of the shots felt fine, with no flyers that I felt upon firing. Still, I know my trigger technique is not completely solidified so it's something to take into account.

I don't have chronograph numbers. Estimated delivery date of my Magnetospeed Sporter is this Wednesday.

I have my own thoughts on the above groups, but would be interested to hear how others interpret them. No holds barred here. I have pretty thick skin, so any and all honest critiquing is appreciated.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Here's the latest. Arrived at the range half an hour before dawn to set up and take advantage of the calm winds. It was worth it because there was hardly a breath of wind. My flagging tape barely moved the whole time, so I think it's safe to eliminate wind as a factor on the resulting groups.

Checked the torque on the scope ring screws, and all are still at 18 inch-pounds, so that doesn't appear to be an issue. After setting up I fired a four-shot group of a known load through a clean barrel as foulers and to see if they still shot as they did previously. Group was under an inch, which matched previous performance so I don't think the gun or scope have been knocked out of whack.

Worked up from 39 to 42 grains of powder (H4895) in single shots at half-grain increments just to make sure I wasn't going past max pressure. No pressure signs all the way up to that point. After that I fired four groups of three rounds at 42.4, 42.7, 43.0 and 43.3 grains, shooting all at the same POA as instructed. (I must say I don't like shooting groups this way, but I can see how they would be much easier to work with at 200 yards because they'd be dispersed a bit more.) Groups were again somewhat disappointing, but shooter error has to be considered as a possible significant factor. At any rate, here's the target, with some post-range artwork added.

View attachment 1029315

Groups are color-coded as follows, with group sizes noted in parentheses: Blue = 42.4 (1.38"); Green = 42.7 (1.87"); Grey/black = 43.0 (1.44"); Red = 43.3 (1.58"). The stars indicate where Gordon's Reloading Tool calculates the group centers.

Ejector mark was slightly more pronounced on one of the 43.3 grain rounds, but the other two looked the same as all the other groups in every other way. No primer cratering or flattening. Didn't feel any difference in bolt lift, so I am fairly sure we have not reached max pressure yet although probably getting close.

I am inclined to think that at least some of the horizontal stringing is me, but that's the toughest one to quantify. All of the shots felt fine, with no flyers that I felt upon firing. Still, I know my trigger technique is not completely solidified so it's something to take into account.

I don't have chronograph numbers. Estimated delivery date of my Magnetospeed Sporter is this Wednesday.

I have my own thoughts on the above groups, but would be interested to hear how others interpret them. No holds barred here. I have pretty thick skin, so any and all honest critiquing is appreciated.

You tested everything except seating the bullet .243 in the case.
If you try that and it fails. I will send you a handful of 87 VMAX, 65vmax and 85 Berger.

 

[Blue68f100]

What was the time between shots? For allowing the barrel to cool.

 

[JFrank]

Agreed on a touch of horizontal , this is fairly simple to read black/Grey is overlapping the green and blue followed by red becoming erractic. Black is the compensating charge in other words the barrel timing is optimizing and rounds will continue to impact that point and may get smaller with finer tuning.
That's what I see anywho..
Very Good test thanks for posting
Once I connect the perspective holes they become easier to interpret.

 

[JFrank]

here's your black group represented by white color pretty much dead center for elevation. Red is definitely too much powder..( Starting to break out)

 

[barnfrog]

You tested everything except seating the bullet .243 in the case.
If you try that and it fails. I will send you a handful of 87 VMAX, 65vmax and 85 Berger.

Good point that I forgot to mention. These were all seated at 0.020" off the lands, which puts them about 0.160" into the neck. Figured to try some further adjustments to seating depth after deciding on the right charge. If that doesn't pull things together then I think you're right that it's time to move on to another bullet.

 

[barnfrog]

What was the time between shots? For allowing the barrel to cool.

I waited 90 seconds between shots. I use a laser temp gun and monitor the temperature of the barrel at the end of the stock. Once it got warmed up from the first few shots it stayed pretty steady around 80 degrees.

 

[barnfrog]

Agreed on a touch of horizontal , this is fairly simple to read black/Grey is overlapping the green and blue followed by red becoming erractic. Black is the compensating charge in other words the barrel timing is optimizing and rounds will continue to impact that point and may get smaller with finer tuning.
That's what I see anywho..
Very Good test thanks for posting
Once I connect the perspective holes they become easier to interpret.

Thanks for the interpretation. I was thinking of loading a five-shot group at 42.9 (between green and black) to confirm the grouping, and if that pans out adjust seating depth to see if things tighten up a bit more.