Dichotomy in gun friendly states..

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I have been pondering something. Texas arguably has some of the best gun friendly laws of all the states, yet open carry is illegal, and even printing can be an offense.

I also just hear on another thread that in Arizona, one cannot carry in any establishment that serves alcohol that is consumed on premise, including family restaurants that offer wine.

I live in Michigan, a state that is 1000 times more liberal and statist that either of those states, yet neither of those laws exist here. We allow open carry, printing or exposing your weapon will not warrant police involvement, and we can carry in places that serve alcohol as long as it's not the primary product in the establishment.

So my question is, how on earth does Michigan get away with allowing these things with all of the liberals in this state, and more importantly, how do states like Texas and Arizona allow their lawmakers to pass such irrational and antagonistic laws for them?

 

[Zundfolge]

Texas arguably has some of the best gun friendly laws of all the states

I think the idea that Texas is this wonderful pro-gun utopia is a myth.

There are a LOT of states with better gun laws than Texas, but the stereotype of the Texan with his Six Shooters leads people to believe Texas is uber-pro-gun.

I think people expect Texas to be more pro gun than it is.

 

[Elza]

The laws in Texas barring open carry go back over 100 years. They were basically designed to keep blacks from carrying guns. Whites were conveniently overlooked. In later years the outlook on guns changed. Trying to get these laws changed today is a real uphill battle.

 

[Elza]

Zundfolge: I think people expect Texas to be more pro gun than it is.

You are quite correct. While Texas is certainly not a bad place to be a gun owner it isn’t as good as some people think.

However, I don’t think that anyone has better Castle Laws than ours.

 

[benEzra]

Contrary to popular belief, a lot of the southern states have harsher gun laws than the national average, a sad legacy of the Jim Crow era. For example, here in NC, to buy a handgun you have to first go hat in hand and ask permission from your (usually white) sheriff; that would have been a very intimidating thing for minorities, which was exactly the point; the sheriff is allowed to deny you if he doesn't like your "moral character."

Fortunately, now that NC has CHL licensure, your CHL exempts you from the necessity of obtaining a purchase permit from the sheriff.

Alabama used to have some asinine laws prohibiting state residents from having a handgun in their vehicle, but has moved in a more pro-gun direction in recent years.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Gun laws in TX are pretty good overall. "Printing" is not the problem it is made out to be. And signs banning guns in public accommodations have to meet strict criteria as to size and wording or they are not valid. Unlike most shall issue states, generic "ghostbuster" type signs are not enforceable.

And most importantly, Texans have an appreciation for the proper use of guns. Moreso than in any other state, (at least in my opinion) Texans who use guns to defend themselves are treated fairly by the government and the law.

Just this year we passed Castle Doctrine, but we barely needed it. DA's and grand juries in TX have always been pretty good at figuring out who the good guys and bad guys are.

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

There are a LOT of states with better gun laws than Texas, but the stereotype of the Texan with his Six Shooters leads people to believe Texas is uber-pro-gun.
==========================================

You mean all the stories I've heard about Texas - like little old ladies wearing Colt .45s on thier hips while they walk thier Chihuahuas is...maybe just "Urban Myth"?

 

[Elza]

frankie_the_yankee: Just this year we passed Castle Doctrine, but we barely needed it. DA's and grand juries in TX have always been pretty good at figuring out who the good guys and bad guys are.

Very true. But one big improvement in the Castle Laws is the bar against tort. The perp or his family can’t sue someone out of existence now. Provided it a was a good shoot, of course.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I think the idea that Texas is this wonderful pro-gun utopia is a myth.

Besides Alaska who has better?

Arizona has OC but you can't carry into any place that sells alcohol at all for consumption on site, which kills about 80% of restaurants.

Vermont has open carry but restrictions out the wazoo on other things.

I don't think you can equate open carry to gun friendly necessarily.

There are a LOT of states with better gun laws than Texas,

Again, besides Alaska, let's see a list and the reasoning behind.

Texas has the new Castle Doctrine, is NFA friendly, carry in most places other states restrict......

Let's see the list.

 

[Jimmie]

Texas has some areas to improve on, but it's got a lot going for it.

The off-limits carry list is relatively short and largely inconsequential. I've got a home-based FFL within walking distance with $10 transfers, the guy across the street buys everything in pairs so he can give each of his sons one when he's gone, my other neighbor read the Houston story and told me he's officially asking me to watch his place while he's gone, and 2 of the largest gun stores in town are owned/operated by LEOs that aren't the least bit condescending towards mere mortals.

Granted the legislature has work to do, but at least in my part of the state the general population has it figured out. My home state has worse laws AND worse public perception.

 

[Zundfolge]

Besides Alaska who has better?

Colorado for one.

Open carry is legal everywhere, Concealed Carry has very few restrictions (no obligation to obey stupid little signs, we can carry into any restaurant or bar we want ... we can even consume small quantities of alcohol while carrying, we can carry on college campuses without running afoul of the law, the only truly off limit places are courthouses, police stations, public schools and wherever the Fed.Gov doesn't let you carry). Only tiny black mark on Colorado is the City/County of Denver with their petty and almost unenforceable AWB.

Utah is almost identical to Colorado, as is Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Oklahoma and the Dakotas. And don't forget kooky little Vermont and their slightly less kooky neighbor New Hampshire.



Certainly Texas is better than New Jersey, Illinois or California ... and somewhat better than average. But its not the best state for gun rights by a long shot.

 

[scurtis_34471]

Actually, open carry is not legal everywhere in Colorado. Individual municipalities can ban it, but they have to post signs. Denver does not allow open carry, for example. This is not a big deal, because there is state pre-emption for concealed carry.

 

[Zundfolge]

scurtis is correct ... it can be banned by individual municipalities, but IIRC Denver is the ONLY one that outright bans it. Functionally, however, most of the state is just fine with open carry.

 

[Regolith]

Colorado for one.

Alaska doesn't require you to get a concealed carry permit to conceal your gun, and you can open carry pretty much anywhere besides. I don't think any state has it beat.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Zundfolge has it right.

Simply put, Texas has a better reputation for being gun friendly than is actually warranted. Its failry obvious to anyone who actually reads, compares and contrasts various state level gun laws.

Going strictly on the structure of its laws, given the various restrictions and very poor rate of participation for carry permits, it honestly gets shuffed somewhere towards the bottom third of the deck of progun states.

Mind you, even the ~worst~ progun state, and I'm not saying that's Texas, is a whole order of magnitude more friendly than an outright antigun state.

Where Texas makes up for all of that isn't in the ~legal~ friendliness towards guns and their owners, but in the ~cultural~ friendliness and respect for guns and their owners.

Simply put, the culture openly accepts guns in a mainstream way that isn't quite as common elsewhere, and is quite refreshing.

 

[Liko81]

Alaska doesn't require you to get a concealed carry permit to conceal your gun, and you can open carry pretty much anywhere besides. I don't think any state has it beat.

Yeah, but do you REALLY want to put up with Alaskan winters just to have permitless carry?

Texas is generally a pretty good place to own firearms. There's no state pre-emption for open carry, and in fact State law is what forbids it, but I've found they don't tend to worry too much when you carry in rural areas, even on someone else's land. "Brandishment of a deadly weapon" generally has a stricter definition rurally than in urban areas and requires an aggressive act, even though technically you could end up in real trouble for having a pistol on your hip anywhere in the State other than your home or business.

I'm not sure Texas will repeal open carry and preempt local laws in the near future; to do so would require rethinking current policy. Unlicensed possession of a firearm anywhere alcohol is sold is a crime. Really that's just icing on the cake if they catch you doing anything else, as licensed concealed carry is the only legal way to carry. But, CHLs are only barred from places where it's sold by the drink and makes up 51% of revenue ("bars" by legal definition), 30.06 posted places and anywhere federal law prohibits. If unlicensed open carry were legal it would still be highly restricted; you wouldn't be able, for instance, to carry into your grocery store in a wet city. Because open carry is illegal, 30.06 doesn't specifically apply to open carry, so they'd probably rethink that statute as well. If a CHL shielded you while carrying openly, or was required to carry openly, a lot of that TABC law currently on the books would mean absolutely squat; if you were carrying legally you can walk right into anywhere but a bar, 30.06 or federally protected site with anything classed as a pistol or revolver.

 

[Frog48]

I think the idea that Texas is this wonderful pro-gun utopia is a myth.

I'd agree. In TX, public sentiment is generally pro-gun, however our statutes are not as pro-gun as people tend to believe.

 

[Albatross]

Oregon gun laws are pretty good. Open carry legal, concealed carry shall issue, NFA weapons all you want. Not sure but it might beat Texas.

Alaska concealed carry has some restrictions. No carrying at schools and bars, a number of other restricted places too.

/Alaska is bigger than Texas.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Curiously enough, although a native of Texas I currently live in a very "blue" state. A CCW costs about one-fifth what it does in Texas, the only requirement for getting one is to take a firearms safety course (any NRA-certified instructior is good to go, and the law doesn't dictate what the course has to cover), and it is not required to shhot a new qualification series when you renew.

There's no such things as a posted business here. I guess concealed carry is so far off everyone's radar that business owners don't even think about it. I haven't seen a "No firearms allowed" sign on ANY business since I've been here. Carry in restaurants that serve alcohol? No problem. Carry in bars? No problem unless you get drunk. Printing? Not a problem.

Open carry is a bit dicey, not because of the law but because the local constabulary in many of the towns and cities don't understand the law.

Overall, probably not really any worse than Texas, just have to be aware of different land mines.

 

[Regolith]

Yeah, but do you REALLY want to put up with Alaskan winters just to have permitless carry?

I hear its not so bad along the southern coast; at least, that's what one of my Alaskan friends tells me.

Besides, think of it this way: having to wear many layers of clothing means you can conceal a larger gun.

 

[Autolycus]

I think that Oregon has the best laws on where you can carry. Basically anywhere except for courthouses and federal buildings. You can carry in your kids school (unless you are a teacher). However they do require training and it can take a few days to get your permit is my understanding.

Vermont has a great idea with no permit needed to carry. However I believe they do have some off limits places. AK is good but I believe they are somewhat restrictive in where you can and cannot carry.

IN and PA are pretty good about where you can carry as well as the cost of permits. No training necessary. Colleges and bars are ok in these states.

It really depends on how you want to define gun friendly. Some states dont require permits while others are restrictive in who can and cannot get a permit. Some allow carry in bars and damn near anywhere, but it is hard to get a permit (California for example).

Some require training while others do not.

If I had to decide on the state that has the best laws, I would go with Oregon.

Oregon has almost no off-limits places. They are pretty NFA friendly according to a lot of posters here and on AR-15.com. However the negative is that it requires training and a permit. Training can be expensive.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Colorado for one.
Open carry is legal everywhere...

It used to be, but isn't still. Open carry is illegal in Denver and Telluride, and I'm unsure about Boulder; conversely, it's entirely legal to carry openly or concealed, loaded or unloaded, in one's home, on one's property, in one's motor vehicle, airplane, boat, or place of business if one's the owner or place of business with the owner's permission without government permission.

I carry openly about a third of the time, and nobody even notices, still less hassles me.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

So my question is, how on earth does Michigan get away with allowing these things with all of the liberals in this state, and more importantly, how do states like Texas and Arizona allow their lawmakers to pass such irrational and antagonistic laws for them?

I think you may not fathom your own query. You seem to be asking why states aren't all or nothing when it comes to gun laws. No state is all or nothing.

You also seem to have the impression that the state tells lawmakers how to vote. As with any state, lawmakers vote how they think is best and that is influenced by what their constituents tell them, but not determined by it.

And, you seem to be of the impression that state lawmakers remain fixed and consistent over time. That just is not the case. There can be political swings as often as every election and that will result in inconsistent law passage.

 

[El Tejon]

1. Texas does not have the best gun friendly laws. Many states have far better carry laws.

2. Understand the history of carrying. The modern reform movement was modeled on Florida which required concealment as to appease the soccermommies and the girlymen in the media (although the terms did not exist in '87).

Concealment became a sop to those on the subdivision fence. Oh, look, we are ashamed to carry our guns, we will hide them for your comfort and compassion for your feelings.

This was in complete contradistinction to the perception of Texas. I was told when I first started to go to Texas in '95 and was angry that I could not legally carry there. I was told that I did not need to worry as I could just strap on a hogleg and mosey down the street. That was a complete lie, but the perception made it the truth.

Texas got what it could which was a huge improvement over what they had pre-'96. Thus, because it was such a gain for gun owners, the "Texas is the best" myth was born.

About the third or fourth time I was at Thunder Ranch, I went to dinner in Kerrville with several other students including an authentic, I believe the term is, "kicker" or "good old boy." Every sentence started "In Texas this", "in Texas that." About how he his new "CHL" at age 44.

He asked me about all those gun laws "up there in Yankeeland where you from". I told him that they were far better than in Texas and I started carrying off private property at 18, didn't need a class, paid $25, could carry whatever pistols I wanted, did not need to cover up, and could carry while having a beer.

He looked down at his dinner and did not say a single word the rest of the dinner. It was a good experience as I learned how to shut a Texan up.

 

[TexasRifleman]

1. Texas does not have the best gun friendly laws. Many states have far better carry laws.

Carrying does not make gun friendly. California has probably some of the most liberal carry laws in the country, but that doesn't make it high on the list of gun friendly places.

I think you have to weigh many things; Do your state and let's see. I'll start with Texas, post yours below.

NFA friendly? TX Yes
Preemption? TX Yes
Open Carry? TX No
CCW and where you can do that? TX so-so. Bars no, restaurants selling alcohol yes. Churches, hospitals. Yes Schools No
May issue vs Shall issue? TX Shall issue
Carry Reciprocity? TX has lots of reciprocity agreements.
Unlicensed carry in cars, RVs, etc.? TX Yes
Castle Doctrine or similar laws protecting gun owners in self defense cases? TX Yes
Long gun laws like AWB style things? TX No
Long gun carry laws? TX No
Magazine restrictions? TX No
Purchasing requirements besides usual Fed (FOID etc)? TX No
Purchasing limits? (1 a month or silliness like that)? TX No
Restrictions on what you can hunt with? caliber, magazine capacity... TX No (other than Federal stuff)
State of Emergency confiscation/sale restrictions (Katrina laws). TX Yes
Threat of force laws? TX You may point a gun at someone as a threat of force and it not be considered USE of deadly force in some cases.

In this list I see only Alaska that has the best of all these. You guys are all hung up on carry, there's much more to it than that.

Arizona has open carry but the alcohol thing really makes that bad. You can't carry into 80 percent of restaurants, that overpowers the open carry thing I think. Other than that it's pretty close to TX.