Did someone say, "militia?"

[Yoda]

I used to run a neighborhood watch in Virginia, and the police stressed that we were NOT to be armed, even to the point that they discouraged people carrying big ole flashlights when we patrolled. Now it looks like a group of citizens in the Miami area have had enough, and are making some more assertive decisions on their own:

"Leaders in neighborhood are preparing to take up arms in crime-plagued area and become a "locked and loaded" community

"Hollywood - Leaders of a crime-plagued neighborhood near downtown are tired of talk and task forces. Instead, they're taking up arms and preparing to become a "lock and loaded" community.

"Members of the Royal Poinciana Civic Association say they want to start working with a Texas-based gun-rights organization and a local weapons-training academy to verse residents on gun laws and self-protection..."

Here's the link for the full story:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-flbroyal0823sbaug23,0,4867186.story

- - - Yoda

======================

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I used to run a neighborhood watch in Virginia, and the police stressed that we were NOT to be armed, even to the point that they discouraged people carrying big ole flashlights when we patrolled.

I am block captain of our neighborhood watch, and as such, I am always asked to participate in the citizen's patrol watch, especially in the busy times like Halloween week. I've done it once, but mostly refuse because of the rules about being armed. I've even told them, "Until you give up the silly idea of disarming me, you can forget about me taking part in this." They actually understand, "but the rules are the rules." Now that Michigan is a shall issue state, I think they might find that it is harder for them to get volunteers that are willing to put a little flashing light on top of their vehicles, calling attention to themselves, and not being able to be armed, something even criminals in this area know.

 

[Treo]

The link doesn't go anywhere can someone post the story?

 

[Jeff White]

The link doesn't go anywhere can someone post the story?

See this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=387651

Now that Michigan is a shall issue state, I think they might find that it is harder for them to get volunteers that are willing to put a little flashing light on top of their vehicles, calling attention to themselves, and not being able to be armed, something even criminals in this area know.

In this day and age where everyone is so eager to sue everyone else, I doubt you'll ever see the day where any city or county sanctions an armed neighborhood watch without all kinds of training and controls. The liability would be staggering. Not only from a citizen suing them for the armed neighborhood watch overstepping it's authority, but from the neighborhood watch members themselves. I can see someone who is armed putting themselves into a situation they aren't trained or equipped to handle because they are over confident because they are armed, then suing the govt. agency that sponsored them for not providing the training and equipment.

I think the days of everyone running home to get their guns and help the sheriff are over with and aren't coming back. Not while the trial lawyers are out looking for deep pockets.

Jeff

 

[Treo]

I think I've mentioned " The Citizen's C.B. Patrol" a time or two. I can't imagine that they had any official sanction. I can imagine my reaction if one of them tried to stop me while I was walking through that neighborhood ( The Meadows) in the middle of the night.

 

[lacoochee]

I think the days of everyone running home to get their guns and help the sheriff are over with and aren't coming back. Not while the trial lawyers are out looking for deep pockets.

It does happen on occasion,

A local resident, Mark Allen Wilson, was returning to his nearby apartment when the shooting began. Wilson, who held a Texas concealed handgun permit, is believed to have responded to seeing Arroyo shoot his wife by drawing his own weapon, a Colt .45 caliber pistol and approaching. Arroyo was already engaged in a heated gun battle with sheriff's deputies and Tyler police officers and apparently did not see Wilson.

Wilson fired one round at Arroyo, causing him to stumble. A witness saw the round strike Arroyo and saw "white puffs of powder-like substance" come from Arroyo's clothing. This appeared to be the first time Arroyo was hit or injured during his attack on the courthouse. Wilson then took cover behind Arroyo's truck.

As Arroyo approached, Wilson stood up and fired again at Arroyo over the truck, hitting him; however, Arroyo was wearing a bulletproof vest, and Wilson's shots did not disable him. Arroyo turned and fired at least one shot at Wilson, who faltered and disappeared from view behind the truck. Arroyo then fired at him three times, killing him.

I can dig up others and for the record whenever a crime is thwarted by a would have been victim, in my opinion the police are helped. Could you imagine the number of police we would need, over what we actually have if folks weren't allowed to defend themselves effectively? Just sayin...

I hope these folks are able to protect themselves and I hope they are actively trying to get their elected officials unelected and replaced with decent politicians.

 

[TimboKhan]

I think the days of everyone running home to get their guns and help the sheriff are over with and aren't coming back. Not while the trial lawyers are out looking for deep pockets.

I absolutely, positively, 100% could not agree more with this statement.

 

[Jeff White]

I can dig up others and for the record whenever a crime is thwarted by a would have been victim, in my opinion the police are helped.

That's true, but it's not the topic of this thread. We are discussing a sanctioned, armed group of citizens, not an individual defending himself or coming to the aid of the police. I had a citizen jump into a fight and help me with a very combative suspect once and I was very grateful that he did it. But it's not the same thing as calling up the militia or forming a posse.

I just don't see an armed group of private citizens ever being sanctioned by a government entity without extensive training and controls over their actions. Not because I'm against it, but because of the liability involved.

Jeff

 

[bobbarker]

I just don't see an armed group of private citizens ever being sanctioned by a government entity without extensive training and controls over their actions. Not because I'm against it, but because of the liability involved.

I gotta agree. I think it's a good idea, and I'd like to see it, but I don't foresee it happening, because, as mentioned, the liability is too great. That's why I'll have my family armed and certified, and we'll protect each other.

 

[dogmush]

Actually the way I read the article, it's an unsantioned group. The impression I got was that the civic assoc. was sick of the local PD's ineffectivness (for whatever reason) and was going to take it on themselves to arm and train the community. The implication being that they will use LF more readily then before, while staying inside the law.

I didn't see anything about an armed citizens patrol, although they may just be being quiet about that, I got the feeling that they were just increasing the number of well defended homes and CCW's.

The Police Chief did not seem to be sanctioning it at all.

Police Chief Chad Wagner, a task force member, said the neighborhood has the right to arm itself, but he's concerned about creating a dangerous situation.

"I am strong advocate of the Second Amendment, but you can go from being a victim to someone being prosecuted very easily," he said. "My fear is that someone is going to get into trouble, or hurt

But this brings up an interesting point.

If the neighborhood starts some kind of "patrol" where armed and aware citizens start wandering around "trolling" for criminals, would they be wrong?

It seems like they went to LE for help, and that help was inneffective. Obviously one can't wander around shooting anybody that looks like a threat, but beyond being stupid, is it illegal to purposly put yourself in a high-risk situation, and then respond with lethal force? It's certinaly right on the edge.

 

[yokel]

If you are in a community where you are fed up with an inept and/or underpaid, overtaxed police force, then immediate, direct and decisive action must be taken to address the problem and secure your home and to protect your neighborhood.

I say more power to those folks and the Second Amendment if they can get it done.

 

[hotshotshoting]

it happens quite a bit (police getting reinforcement from civilians) not like the old west but i have been involved in quite a few transactions where the police needed more firepower due to criminals being armed with better weapons then they had...

ps and i am happy to oblige!

 

[dogmush]

but i have been involved in quite a few transactions where the police needed more firepower due to criminals being armed with better weapons then they had...

ps and i am happy to oblige!

Really? You lend your superior firepower to the police frequently? Do you go with them to use the howitzer-in-question (HIQ, new acronym, yea me ) or just lend them the hardware? Seems like you might want to vote some bonds or something to get them toys of their own. Or some kind of DHS grant. Do they reimburse you for ammo, or provide it themselves? Is there some kind of liability waiver that you sign on a case by case basis? Also where do you live? If the police are regularly outgunned, I want to stay the frak away!


ETA: What is the HIQ (2 points for gratuitous use of my new acronym), anyway? Do you have some sort of WWII bringback recoilless rifle? Or an M60? 155?

 

[Titan6]

That is amazing hotshotshooting! Are you a private detective? I saw that on TV once where the private detective came to the aid of the police.

 

[jonmerritt]

Not Armed Citizens, OH NO!!

"I just don't see an armed group of private citizens ever being sanctioned by a government entity without extensive training and controls over their actions. Not because I'm against it, but because of the liability involved.

"


That is ironic, just look at your local law enforcement. Your Mayor would rather spend $100,000 on trees for mainstreet, than updated equipment and training for the officers. Or requiring, and paying for, ongoing weapons training. (We do this every chance we get, at our own expense, when we go to the firing range.) Joe Snuffy citizen always gets told "You can't take the law into your own hands". Yes you can, that is how and why the laws were written in the first place!!!!! They can legaly patrol there own neighbor hood! As long as they don't overstep there bounds, just like law enforcement. Actually they can do a little more than an LEO can.

 

[LKB3rd]

I can see why a government sanctioned group could be not allowed to be armed. My response, if I were the group leader, would be to make an independent group if I wanted to be able to be armed. I can't see a reason why people wouldn't be able to do this on their own, without any endorsement from anyone.
In fact, in New Haven, CT, there was a group from a jewish synagogue who were doing armed patrols of one of the city parks, in an area of town where their synagogue was, and many of the members of it lived within walking distance.
The story got news coverage partly on its own merit, and partly because of the unexpected images of armed rabbi's in their orthodox style clothes, with the curly sideburns etc, patrolling that park with guns. http://newhavenindependent.org/archives/2007/06/edgewoods_packi.php

 

[dogmush]

My response, if I were the group leader, would be to make an independent group if I wanted to be able to be armed. I can't see a reason why people wouldn't be able to do this on their own, without any endorsement from anyone.

This was my thinking, but ponder this:

1. Most states have laws against forming an armed militia and "paramilitary" training. You'd have to walk a fine line to stay legal.

2. The third or fourth time you shot someone in self defense, while being mugged, the cops or DA might start to wonder why you and your friends continued to walk in those places at those times.

3. If you announced to the world that your neighbors were walking the streets armed for the express purpose of detering crime, I'd almost garuntee that your local PD would go bonkers and find some way to stop you.

I feel strongly for the citizens that feel like local law enforcement has failed them, but unless your comunity was located near a large empty desert or swamp of some kind, I really see an armed citizen patrol going really badly for those armed citizens.

That being said, what these guys seem to be actually doing; i.e. helping homeowners get guns and traning on legal use of them is a great idea. it should make muggers, home invaders and other oppertunistic criminals think twice about these hunting grounds.

 

[Steve Raacke]

I think that if the civic association simply had their regular meetings and had topics such as Gun Laws, How to get a CCP, Storing and Carrying Guns Safely, etc for neighborhood residents then there would not be a problem. Educate the residents. Tell them about their rights and how to exercise them. Get proactive with the crime problem. Armed patrols might not be the way to go but if every other person walking down the block is capable of defending themselves with deadly force things may turn around.

 

[LKB3rd]

2. The third or fourth time you shot someone in self defense, while being mugged, the cops or DA might start to wonder why you and your friends continued to walk in those places at those times.

The answer in the New Haven case would be "because we live in that neighborhood." In the video, the Rabbi is talking about it, and says that there had been 4 recent attacks vs members of his synagogue, with the final straw being the assault of his son, starting on the doorstep of his house, and then going inside. Seems like they may have been being targeted because of their appearance, being the appearance of orthodox jews, which you can see in the pics and videos in the link I posted earlier.

3. If you announced to the world that your neighbors were walking the streets armed for the express purpose of detering crime, I'd almost garuntee that your local PD would go bonkers and find some way to stop you.

Think about that statement. Why would the police go bonkers over citizens taking action to stop crime? That is their goal. Is it because they want the commoners to beg them for help? Help that they are unable to provide, even after being asked in New Haven many times?
I am not saying you are wrong, I think that the police would go bonkers in most places, I am just asking you to think why that might be.
I say, let them go bonkers all they want. If what you are doing is legal, no one has to like it, but they do have to put up with it.

 

[October]

The third or fourth time you shot someone in self defense, while being mugged, the cops or DA might start to wonder why you and your friends continued to walk in those places at those times.

And that illustrates one of the problems with government attitudes in today’s society. The cops or DA should be asking why there are so many criminals in this area, not blame the victims for failing to surrender the place to the crooks.

 

[SCKimberFan]

It's happening more than you think:

In Charlotte NC: http://eliza-blog.blogspot.com/2008/06/guns-in-plaza-midwood.html

In Hew Haven CT: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1848814/posts

In LA: http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jun/10/nation/na-briefs10.3

Quite frankly, it is going to take more citizens watching out for their neighbors before things get better in the good ole US of A.

 

[Mr White]

The local police can discourage armed citizens patrolling in neighborhood watch groups, but can they prohibit it?

If the patrol's charter says no one shall be armed, and I carry concealed (legally), and an incident aises and I am forced to shoot someone, what would be the legal consequences for me? Sure, I'd most likely be kicked out of the neighborhood watch, but that's a small price to pay for my life. Would I be in any deeper shiznit than if I was just an armed citizen in the same situation?

 

[dogmush]

And that illustrates one of the problems with government attitudes in today’s society. The cops or DA should be asking why there are so many criminals in this area, not blame the victims for failing to surrender the place to the crooks.

Think about that statement. Why would the police go bonkers over citizens taking action to stop crime? That is their goal. Is it because they want the commoners to beg them for help? Help that they are unable to provide, even after being asked in New Haven many times?
I am not saying you are wrong, I think that the police would go bonkers in most places, I am just asking you to think why that might be.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's not a bad idea. If my neighborhood was that bad I'd be one of the first out there walking at night, If OC was legal with a Carbine. I was just pontificating on what I thought the police would do, as opposed to what I thought they should do.

I say, let them go bonkers all they want. If what you are doing is legal, no one has to like it, but they do have to put up with it.

There's lots of folks on this very board who've been arrested or detained for legal activities that might argue they don't have to put up with it.

I personally think this is a *great* idea. The only effective, long term way to reduce crime is to have a community that doesn't tolerate it. As opposed to many disarmed, inner city neughborhoods where it is ignored by the residents. I think there's more then a few places in this country where the residents need to do some kind of policeing of themselves. Unfortunatly, except in rare cases like this the kind of folks who are willing to do this, don't live in high crime areas.

 

[dogmush]

Think about that statement. Why would the police go bonkers over citizens taking action to stop crime?

Because the citizens in this case are publicly stateing that the police are either unable, or unwilling to do their job. From there it's not a far leap to fire your current police force and get one that is able/willing to do the job.

*note* this is not a cop bash (I'll let you know when I start one) but rather a thought experiment in what I think would be the likely reaction of the law, and of the media. I don't think it's to far of a leap though.

 

[LKB3rd]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's not a bad idea. If my neighborhood was that bad I'd be one of the first out there walking at night, If OC was legal with a Carbine. I was just pontificating on what I thought the police would do, as opposed to what I thought they should do.

If we allow them to tell us what to do, without any laws to back up what they are saying, then guess what.. you live in a police state. I am not arguing with you, I understand what you are saying.

There's lots of folks on this very board who've been arrested or detained for legal activities that might argue they don't have to put up with it.

Again, I am not disagreeing with you. The first step to being treated like a free man is to act like a free man. How did we get to a place where governments are allowed to trample our rights and bully us into doing what they want? It is because people just say "Oh geez, you can't fight city hall." They are wrong! Yea, it won't be easy, and it won't be free, but the reward is great when determined people refuse to accept lawlessness by the government, who's function is to enforce the laws AS WRITTEN. Let them try to discourage you all they want.
Use your own brain, decide what you think is best, and if it is legal then do it! That is what free people do, and that is what our form of government is supposed to protect.
/step off soap box