Differences I noticed Between Gen4 G19 and Gen2 G19

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The replacement magazine showed up today. So I think I can say things are finally how they should be. It took a while, but things seem fixed finally. The gun, from last weekend anyways, functioned as it should, and I have all my magazines again. However, I'm still not sure if I will be keeping this gun after all the hassle. Glock seems to have turned their customer service around as of late, but for some it might be too little too late. Personally I'm still unsure about what to do with them. I like them as a company politically, and their customer service seems fixed, but after all of this I'm still conflicted about giving them any of my money for a long while, if ever again. The Gen 4 seems like it was released to market without any R&D, like it was rushed and just thrown together. Why make so many mechanical changes to a design that was mechanically sound? It certainly wasn't necessary just to facilitate interchangeable back straps, so why? They've ruined their reputation and the reputation of the Glock 19. The only way I'm getting a "new" Glock, is if it comes from a warehouse somewhere with a serial number prior to the MUM prefix, meaning manufactured before 2009. I can't speak to current production models of either Gen 3 or Gen 4, because I don't have anything newer than the Gen 4 mentioned through out this post, and I likely won't for a long, long time. It's going to take a long time and a lot of rounds fired by a lot of people who aren't me to restore my faith in new Glocks. Smith and Wesson can tell you how long my memory works.
 
I wouldn't loose all faith in them. This sort of stuff happens with all brands. The important thing is they made it right. Maybe the process could be smoother, but in the end you got a fixed gun and your magazine back. I'd forgive them. There are still plenty of people that got perfectly good Gen 4 glocks. I wouldn't write the whole product off just because of one bad experience. They are still working the bugs out IMO.

Or, you could join the dark side with me, forgive S&W and get an M&P pistol. :evil:
 
I want to believe that they have worked the kinks out finally, but I don't like the idea that they used the market to do it. I would also like to think that the current production Gen 3 works like older production Gen 3 guns, but I don't know. The extractor Glock sent me for the Gen 4 doesn't seem like the MIM part it initially came with, so I hope that's what they use now on all the guns. If so, I would think that the current Gen 3 is every bit the same as any previous Gen 3, but without tearing one apart, I don't know that.

In any case the problems I've had with Glock are still the lesser evil between them and S&W. The whole thing has still left a sour taste in my mouth. Glock seems to have worked out their CS issues, but what happened shouldn't have happened in the first place. Slipping through the cracks once or something I could understand. Slipping through the crack 4 times for parts and 3 times for return instruction seems a bit much. Some guy forgetting to put an order in the system or something once is no big deal, having it happen time and time again, and not being able to contact CS about it is a serious problem, and though it seems to have been fixed, I'm still pissed about it. It wasn't really any one thing that turned me sour on them because I know mistakes can happen, it was the frequency of mistakes, and how widespread they were. I didn't have problems with just the parts department, I didn't have problems just with being able to contact them, I didn't have problems just with warranty services, I had problems everywhere I went, every time I dealt with them, and almost regardless of who I dealt with, with very few exceptions. It took their VP stepping in to get things done. That's something he should never have to do, but I'm glad he did it. I do think he made some serious changes to their customer service too, but like I said it may have been too little too late. Who knows where I'd be had he not stumbled across this forum. It was only by dumb luck that I managed to get my problem fixed. Ultimately it's going to take Glock some time to earn back my respect or my business. CS wise they seem to be working on it, but it's not there yet. I used to joke with friends about Glock sitting on their ass never making any changes, not making any progress with designs and so forth, but the changes with Gen 4 are not what I had in mind. The changes they did make to the texture and grip don't seem to warrant the engineering and mechanical changes that were made. I guess it's true, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

S&W has almost no chance of earning my business. If they were to clean house management wise, give credit for the designs they steal, and apologize to the American citizens for ****ing over their Constitutional rights I may consider it, but since I don't think that'll ever happen their odds are slim. There are things in their line I like, but that usually means I could just get that product from the company they stole it from.
 
No time to read this entire diatribe of several pages.

Bizzare: We have several Glocks in .40 and .45, my agency gives us G19s for duty and I have a lone G17 as well. As long as I clean the pistols as directed in the Owner's Manual there are no problems. There's been no problems when I DONT clean the weapons either. I was no fan when we had to run G17s in our LE Academy, but they grew on me. Then I became a Glock Armorer through their LE program. Top notch Instructor and learning opportunities. Excellent support and programs all around. I am NOT a salesman-if I had problems I would be the first to beeotch.

Smith And Wesson: I have had several M&Ps and a couple Gen 3 10mms. S&W CS sent me mailer labels to return pistols for warranty work AND replaced worn out parts as they saw fit. All I had to do was take the packages to, and retrieve them from, a UPS Shipping hub. Other than the packaging time and my drive time the work was done for "free" so to speak, and with the Gen 3s I wasn't even the original factory purchaser!

I love the S&Ws and the Glocks for different reasons, but similar to my affection for the Caspian, Para, and STI 1911s we have-they're just plain fun. If you sincerely believe you cannot trust Glock OR S&W, you're in some deep water.
 
I just read the entire 8 pages of your post. You have a lot more patience than I would have had. Glad you finally got it fixed but your experience has turned me OFF to buying any currently manufactured Glocks. Thankfully, all of my Glocks are several years old and have been trouble free. In your situation, I would have asked for a new gun. I'm wondering why you never did that? And thanks for sharing your experiences. We can all be better educated by it.
 
It's not that I don't trust S&W, I just refuse to give them my money. It's also not that I don't trust Glock, but I don't trust my Gen 4, and until I see otherwise, I don't trust their current production guns. The older Glock 21 I have functions perfectly and it always has, but it's a bit on the large side for IWB carry, so I bought the Gen 4 19.

Texagun, I didn't ask for a new gun because I didn't think I would get one. Even if I did get one, it may have well had the same issues. Seems to me they just figured out the fix. If they knew what the fix was months ago, you'd think they would of said something along the lines of "other people are having similar problems, we've found that replacing the ejector fixes it, here are return instructions" instead of doing R&D and remaking the extractors, recoil spring assemblies, etc. several times and shipping those to everyone knowing it wouldn't fix anything. I'm hoping that's the case anyways. I don't see why they would know how to fix it, then not do it or not tell you how. Makes me wish I'd gotten a 19 before Gen 4's came out. Oh well, until I can get my hands on a DeLorean, an eccentric professor, and some Libyan terrorists there's no way to change that, so live and learn.
 
Duffman,

I've been following your struggle with Glock and your G19 and want to thank you for keeping such a good record so the rest of us know what is going on. I'm glad that you finally have the G19 in a condition that is usable. I know that you went through recoil springs, extractors, you noted problems with the extractor plunger and now a new "improved" ejector.

Are you now in a position to examine all of this and conclude what you think was the real fix? Was it the ejector or do you think it was all of the changes together? Have you shot the G19 enough to look at all those parts and draw any conclusions? Is the extractor plunger showing additional wear since the last time you looked at it? Does the extractor fall out as easily as it should?

I would be very interested to know your conclusions once you feel you have had enough time with the G19 and can look objectively at it. Also, what is the current status of the parts (recoil spring #, ejector #, extractor)?

Thanks again for sharing.
 
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I compared my Gen3 G23 which has consistent ejection and my Gen3 G27 which has erratic ejection and I think I know the cause of most of the ejection problems with recent production Glocks. Yes, some are attributed to out-of-spec extractors and previous Gen4 guide rod versions, but this is different.

I took a spent casing with the primer punched out so I could see how the extractor holds the rim in each of my slides. I slid the rim under the extractor in the G23 slide. I then took the extractor out of that slide and put it into my G27 slide and used the same spent casing to do the same test. In my G27 slide there's about 1mm extra space between the breech face and extractor claw for the rim of the casing to slide forward and rearward between. So what's happening is that the extractor is not holding the spent casing to the breech face as it should, and the spent casing is falling down nearly or completely to the level of the top round in the magazine or the magazine feed lips. Because the bottom of the extractor claw is still forward of the rim ejection still occurs, but the ejector is hitting much higher on the spent casing and because the casing is sitting so low it pivots right and smacks into the slide case mouth first, then bounces around in the ejection port any number of ways before finally leaving the ejection port. While I've never experienced a malfunction, that could contribute to failures to eject that some people are experiencing.

The problem is that the slide isn't cut correctly. The cut-out in the slide for the extractor is too far forward toward the muzzle, so the extractor isn't holding the casing to the breech face. I think it's a quality control problem in how the slides are cut.

The new ejector has a rearward tilt to raise the case mouth earlier during ejection to help it clear the ejection port better, plus the ejector is taller top to bottom so no matter how far down the casing falls the ejector will still act on it in the same fashion.
 
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Since I'm in the market for a G19 it will be interesting to see how fast the new recoil spring, extractor and ejector show up in factory shipped units. I don't really want to pick one up now just to spend time and effort sending it back to get fixed. Perhaps by January most of the old stock will get flushed out of the distribution channels.
 
Since I'm in the market for a G19 it will be interesting to see how fast the new recoil spring, extractor and ejector show up in factory shipped units. I don't really want to pick one up now just to spend time and effort sending it back to get fixed. Perhaps by January most of the old stock will get flushed out of the distribution channels.
I plan to wait for the new ejectors to show up in new stock as well. I want to buy a Gen4 G23 but I'm going to wait until they come with the new ejector. If they have the new ejector, it's guaranteed that they'll have the "dot" connector and latest guide rod assembly as well.
 
9mmHolePunch,

I didn’t have a chance to try the ejectors side by side because the Glock techs threw away the “old” one that the pistol came with. However, prior to that the recoil spring assembly was changed from the 0-3 assembly I bought it with, to the 0-4-3 assembly Glock VP sent me. That had no discernible effect on the functioning of the gun. The extractor was also changed from the original MIM Glock extractor to a Lone Wolf Distributor, and then to an improved Glock extractor, neither of those fixes in any combination with either of the recoil spring changed anything for the better. Different ammunition was also tried to see what effect that would have, and it made no difference. The extractor plunger assembly was also replaced because of speculation on the internet that it may have something to do with weak ejection, and because my stock one had become abnormally damaged through routine use. That too failed to produce reliable ejection with any combination of recoil spring assemblies or extractors. So the gun was sent back to Glock for repairs. As far as I know the only changes that were made were the ejector was replaced with the redesigned ejector that is now in it, and they replaced the damaged stock extractor plunger assembly. The tech said the wear on the plunger was not abnormal per se, but it was very abnormal for the number of rounds fired. They’ve seen plungers like that before, just usually on guns with 10’s of thousands of rounds through them, not one with 1,025 rounds through it.

From the 300 rds I’ve fired since the ejector was replaced I would say that the ejector was the problem, but without having the old ejector to verify that, I can’t say definitively. Just from all indications I have, that was the cause. I could put some of the old parts in it and see if the problem crops back up, but I would expect that if the new parts didn’t solve the problem before, the old parts shouldn’t bring it back, with the exception of the ejector. I suppose I could try that, but it might take awhile.

The good news being that if the ejector is indeed the problem, that’s something anyone can check at the gun store by locking the slide back and looking down on the ejector. If it’s blunted on the end, you should be good. If it’s the older style very sharp pointed one, get a different model.

The new extractor plunger is being worn in the same places, but it’s to a normal degree this time. It looks slightly used and has a polished area around half of it, but there is no pitting or gouging like there was before. The newer Glock extractor falls free during disassembly like the Lone Wolf did, to my knowledge this part was not replaced by Glock when the pistol was returned for service, if so the part number or vendor code, whatever it is, is still “10” like it is in the photos and video I made comparing the extractors. The Lone Wolf is marked with a 4 on one of the top inner surfaces; the Glocks are marked on their inner edge. The pistol as it is currently set up has a Glock extractor plunger, the “newer” Glock extractor that does not have the depression or sprue mark, an 0-4-3 recoil spring assembly, and their new squared off ejector. It consistently ejected whatever I shot during the last 300 rd session, to include some softer reloads that only chrony to 900 some odd fps.

I still don’t feel comfortable using it as a carry gun however. It is MUCH better than it was, but I don’t know. We have history, and most of it isn’t good. It’s going to take this particular gun a long time to earn my trust, if ever. It may live life as a paper puncher or it may live life with someone else, I’m comfortable enough in it’s functioning that I would sell it now, but I’m at a loss what to replace it with if I did. I picked a G19 for a reason. They beat everyone on capacity, weight, size, and up until recently reliability, and I’m invested into them. Getting something else means ditching magazines, holsters, parts, etc. I may try to find a NIB older Gen 3 prior to the M serial numbers or something, I’d have to do more looking and find out when they changed the extractors.

I’ll try to post up some more pictures or maybe a video or 2 about the current parts later. I have all the folders and stuff for this on another computer and want to keep the photos organized in the same way and place, so I can’t do it from here.
 
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Good catch. Should be extractor plunger. The plunger that pushes against the back of the extractor with the spring end touching the firing pin plate at the back of the slide. Long day man.
 
Duffman

Thanks for the detailed summary. It sounds like it really is the ejector that was at fault but certainly the extractor had its problems too.

I was leaning toward getting a Gen 3 over a Gen 4 based on all the significant problems reported until this morning. I was shooting a recent vintage Gen 3 and I was getting brass thrown at my head on a regular basis. Never had this happen on any other gun I have owned, borrowed or rented so now I know what you are talking about first hand. I guess I will have to wait for the new improvements to get into production models before I buy any generation.
 
The only thing I'm aware of that's different on the current production gen 3 vs gen 3 G19s from say 3 years ago is the extractor. I'd like to think that one produced lately, like within the last couple of months would have the better extractor back in it.

The ejector that came with my gun and the one in the gen 3 as far as I know is the same type that was in the gen 2 g19, it apparently doesn't work in gen 4 guns though, hence the new ejector. I wouldn't think the gen 3 would need that. They worked fine until recently with the old style ejector, I see no reason they would stop working except the extractor. I don't know maybe they need the ejector too, but I don't see why they would. They worked fine with the old ejector until they got MIM extractors. In any case here some pictures and videos. Nothing special.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Glock Fixes/10-14-2011/
 
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