Dillon shmit disturber--> 550's and 650's

[uglymofo]

Cordex,

I'll preface my reply by quoting myself from an earlier post--

I'm trying to find out as much about the Dillons in order to give an unbiased recommendation to someone who's never seen a reloading press

From my reading of the archives, the number of responses (even if you'd consider only 33% as a 'few') from Dillon users suggest a Strong Mount and Handle are desirable. I've never seen pictures of multiple presses without them. As I said 'way earlier, and seem to have to repeatedly defend, I used $500 as a general figure; seems like lots of y'all don't like that, and some like it even less that I ask about the reasoning behind buying mulitple 'quick-change' presses.

The point isn't what Hornady does and doesn't provide; I'm trying to give my best advice to a friend, who wants to know what other OEMs and setups are available, that will do the things I've described to him from my experience with a LNL AP. The Hornady doesn't come with a "Strong Mount" and handle; no such products are available. I've never heard anyone complain about the need for them.

As for this comment:

How did I ever load ammo without this stuff? I started with a rockchucker a set of dies and a scale. Poured powder into a cereal bowl and tap tap tapped it into the scale with a spoon...

Ya done 'way bettah than me. I started with a $7 Lee reloading kit, a cereal bowl, and a butter knife to level off the dipper. Man, that was long ago...


I'd sure like to hear from more 650 owners about the change-out strengths/weaknesses of their presses. After all, the 650 is more comparable to the LNL AP. Thanks.

 

[cordex]

From my reading of the archives, the number of responses (even if you'd consider only 33% as a 'few') from Dillon users suggest a Strong Mount and Handle are desirable.

They may absolutely be desirable ... but lots of things are desirable. For instance, a top-of-the-line electronic scale might be desirable, but most people start out with a balance beam scale.

I used $500 as a general figure; seems like lots of y'all don't like that, and some like it even less that I ask about the reasoning behind buying mulitple 'quick-change' presses.

You proposed a "general figure" that was rather high. To justify it, you tacked on a bunch of "desirable" extras that aren't necessary and aren't even available on the LNL AP.

As to the reasoning behind multiple Dillons, some people have enough money that buying extra presses to avoid having to change dies makes sense. I'd wager that before long you'll see pictures of people with two or three LNL APs lined up on their bench too.

If I had enough cash, I'd probably stop at buying two 550s - one for large primers and one for small. If I only loaded one size of primer, I'd stick with one press. Shellplate changeovers are quick and toolhead changeovers are quicker.

The point isn't what Hornady does and doesn't provide; I'm trying to give my best advice to a friend, who wants to know what other OEMs and setups are available, that will do the things I've described to him from my experience with a LNL AP.

Are you just trying to convince your friend not to get a Dillon? If not, then why suggest that they're so much more expensive by adding a bunch of unnecessary parts to it? This doesn't seem "unbiased" to me.

Yeah, it might be nice to have a strong mount and roller handle and low powder sensor, but they are hardly requirements for a good Dillon. I have none of them on my 550.

The Hornady doesn't come with a "Strong Mount" and handle; no such products are available. I've never heard anyone complain about the need for them.

I wonder if they would be considered "desirable" if Hornady offered them. If Hornady charged an extra $100 for 'em, would you add that on to the price you suggest to your friend?

The Hornady press might well be superior, but not because the Dillon is so much more expensive.

 

[Steve Smith]

I think the strong mount is for people who want to stand when reloading. I do mine sitting...if I had a strong mount on my press and still sat, I wouldn't be able to look at what was going on, and my arms would have to be about a foot longer. If the press is mounted to a solid bench, it is VERY rigid and you won't even think about needing a "strong mount."

 

[uglymofo]

Cordex,

Are you a Dillon salesman? or used cars?? In either case, go away.:banghead:



Ah. Thanks, Steve.

 

[Steve Smith]

FWIW, I am still wondering about the Hornady priming issues. If it weren't for that, I would recommend it rather than the 550 to friends. Is the jury still out to lunch on this?

 

[Zak Smith]

I now use the "strong mount" on all my Dillon presses. I found that cranking the press sitting down did a number on my back.

The strong mount also allows access to the rear of the bottom of the press, which means you can disassemble it for cleaning or repair without removing the "frame" from the bench. This is especially true with the SDB.

[ XL650 pictured above ]

-z

 

[Steve Smith]

Perhaps adjusting your sitting height or the press/bench height is the biggest thing. Since I sit, I have to reach up to grab the handle...but not a lot..say 2" above shoulder height (guessing)? That way the bottom end of the handle's travel is about 1/2" before my elbow reaches it's maximum extension. My back doesn't have to move. I think I might have gotten lucky with bench and chair height. Consiering Zak's comment, it seems that this should be a part of press set up for all of us.

 

[Zak Smith]

Steve,

The other ergonomic modification I made was to mount the presses on the bench rotated slightly counter-clockwise, maybe 20 degress. This allows me to stand close directly in front of it but not have the lever interfere with my torso position. It also allows better visibility and reach to the bullet seating station.

-z

 

[Steve Smith]

What I do is I have one of those metal folding chairs. I sit in it with the chair just far enough away from the bench so that I can go to TDC with the ram without hitting my hand on the chair. I sit VERY erect with my back several inches away from the chair back. A three legged stool could also work if it were tall enough.

For some reason I'm wondering if mounting the press on a precise swivel, with the stop where you would load a case and insert a bullet. That way, it would swivel naturally as your arm would. Your thoughts?

Too much monkey motion?

 

[uglymofo]

Steve,

I posted numerous times on the old TFL site, trying to cure my own priming problems. I had phenomenal troubles with the priming system on my LNL AP, but hindsight says it was 'user error'. I started reloading with the LNL AP by reloading about 3000 rounds of 45acp. It was murderous, because the primers would either not seat fully, or not seat squarely, and with both failures, brass would shave and then the primer sled wouldn't cycle all the way, causing even more erratic priming. Countless phone calls didn't solve the problem until one very astute Hornady technician got me through it.

The short version is, I wasn't swaging the milsurp brass enough. The coincidence of never reloading another caliber up to that point eliminated the chance for me to see the problem was self-induced. I've never had a problem with commercial brass, (nor LC rifle brass); I just wish I'd had started out with a different caliber. That would have told me my priming troubles were specific to the 45acp (90% of my brass is old milsurp), and I might have found the cure earlier.

I've read where the priming station has to be kept very clean in order to function consistently well, but I've not had to make any adjustments to my regimen in consideration for the priming station since I swaged the milsurp 45acp brass a little wider. I have also read that the newer machines have a revamped priming system, but that's all I know--I haven't seen any complaints regarding the new priming system, but it's only been out for about 2-4 months, I think.

I toyed with the idea of offsetting my mount on the Hornady too, but I ended up using a swivel chair. It works basically in the same manner as y'all are discussing, but instead of moving the press out of the way, my torso and offending knee pivot away instead.

 

[cordex]

Are you a Dillon salesman? or used cars??

*laugh*
No, not at all. I like my press just as you like your press. It just seemed to me that you were looking for reasons to put down the Dillon (high price, hard to change calibers, etc) while claiming to be trying to be unbiased. Please don't be offended if I point out inaccuracies.

Like I said, the Dillon's main weakness when changing calibers is having to switch between large and small primers. That's the only thing that takes much time at all. The shellplate change is quick and the toolhead is very fast. Changing out the 650 is quite a bit slower, but I've never really taken a shine to the 650 anyhow. I have only anecdotal reviews of the LNL AP, but I won't badmouth it just because the only guy I know who has one doesn't like it.

If he's going to be swapping large/small primers often, he might be better suited with the LNL AP ... if the LNL is any faster at changing primer sizes, that is.

What kind of primers do you use? I've never needed to swage primer pockets from mil-surp .45ACP (new or WWII). I use Winchester primers. Could the primer cup not be centered?

 

[caseydog]

Minimally, a Dillon 550 is in the general neighborhood of $500

Ehhhh , wrong answer ! I looked at your Dillon webpage subtotal, Does your Hornady have a roller handle ? A strong mount ?, you save $30 at Brianenos on just the press. FWIW I bought a 550 (bare) + 2 deluxe caliber conversions (2 shellplate kits with expander ,2 powder dies , 2 toolheads , 2 powder measures and 2 toolhead stands ) and a benchwrench in a pear tree for a touch over $400 shipped at brianenos.com (I have all the dies I need and then some).

Per Hornady's own site comparison chart: Dillon RL 550 B
w/one cal. conversion
kit $325.98

Hornady
Lock-N-Load AP
$396.55

RL550 Toolhead 13909 $ 12.95

Lock & Load Die Bushings
(2-Pack) No. 044094 $9.33
(3-Pack) No. 044093 $13.52
(10-Pack) No. 044096 $41.57
(by the way with a 5 station press - why don't bushings come in packs of 5??)

Pasted from the Hornady site:* Dillon Caliber Conversion Kits are sold as one caliber per kit. Hornady shell plates give you multiple caliber capabilities. For example Shell Plate No. 1 loads more than 30 different calibers. Each shell plate costs about the same as one Dillon Conversion Kit. The savings and advantages are clear. Comparison source: The Blue Press, 11/97.



LOCK-N-LOAD AP RELOADING PACKAGE
The Lock-N-Load AP comes complete with all the features listed above, including the Deluxe Powder Measure, Case Activated Powder Drop, cartridge catcher and five Lock-N-Load die bushings.

(comment : Dillon shellplate #1 will load 28 calibers)



The press costs more with one shellplate ,the die bushings cost more than a toolhead , and the big issue that Hornady makes on their site is that one shellplate will load more than one caliber for the same price as a Dillon conversion kit , well ok I guess they didn't find this info on the Dillon : http://www.dillonhelp.com/rl550benglish/cal_cross_ref_chart.htm

I'm not saying the LNL isn't a good press and if you like it and it does what you need ~ good for you !, but I don't see where price has a whole lot to do with who's the better deal, and to be fair I know that the Hornady can be found cheaper at retail than their site , and so can the Dillon. If I had the money I'd have one set up for each primer size and a deluxe caliber change for each load I like (instead of caliber), that would eliminate any and all adjustments. For those guys who have multiple Dillons set up , (well I'm jealous) , hey it's their money and their time and thats what works for them and their budget. Case

 

[Zak Smith]

I don't know about te 550, but if you are going to change between large and small primers on the 650, it's best to get a second complete priming system for the other size. You loosen 3 or 4 bolts and just swap the entire unit out with no recalibration.

-z

 

[jdkelly]

LNL AP, what is it's round per hour rate?

Uglymofo,

I don't know anything about the Hornady LNL AP. What is it's round per hour rate? I went to the Hornady web site and saw nothing listed.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[JimC]

I have a 550B [seven seperate tools heads w/powder measures] and a 650 setup for 9mmx19 and .45 ACP w/case feed.

I get everything done that I need to on these, handgun wise. In the rifle area, I use an RCBS Rockchucker [about 34 years old].

I have a setup for and have loaded .223 and .308 on the 550 but not on a regular basis.

I have and like very much, both the strong mounts and roller handles on both the 550 and the 650.

I agree with the statement about the low powder sensor. If I had one on all of my tool heads it would run me $323.59! That's a lot of components.

The powder check system isn't needed either, especially at $58.95.

 

[uglymofo]

My LNL AP is set up without the casefeeder and I can reload 350-400 an hour at a pretty leisurely pace.

I use an RCBS lockout die. Takes less than a minute to adjust it for each caliber change; (and as long as I stay with pistol calibers) I just leave it in the head.

Cordex,

Federal Large Pistol primers. Even when I used WLP, I had the troubles I described.

caseydog,

FWIW I bought a 550 (bare) + 2 deluxe caliber conversions (2 shellplate kits with expander ,2 powder dies , 2 toolheads , 2 powder measures and 2 toolhead stands ) and a benchwrench in a pear tree for a touch over $400 shipped at brianenos.com (I have all the dies I need and then some).

apples and oranges. If you punch in the same items as I did at Enos, you'll end up <$30 saved, total.

Does my LNL AP have a strong mount and handle(?), no; not needed standing or sitting--that's old news; Steve Smith explained it all earlier in the thread. Most of your post is all either a rehash or apples and oranges. I never could fathom a 5 head machine "needing" 3 bushings either, but I'd settle for 4-packs; there's no reason to swap out at the powder measure station.

We're still way more interested in 650 comparisons; 550's (and its' setup costs) don't really compare with a 650 vs. LNL AP (setup costs) and performance. As I said earlier, lots of folks here seem to take umbrage to my using $500 as a general number; yet when a good portion of Dillon users post pics of multiple presses, their machines are set up that way, so I went with the flow, and stand by $500 anyway, since the 550 pales in the shadow of either an LNL AP or the 650 (which was an equal part of the question; everyone seems to want to grind my hypothetical 550 setup price, but not many have discussed the 650 which would probably take it way $500).

 

[Steve Smith]

Oh and one more thing...

Don't forget that you CAN adapt a 550 to use a 650's powder check die. Use the sarch engine to find where I did it.

 

[jdkelly]

Uglymofo,

Again I don't know anything about the Hornady LNL AP.

It appears that your Hornady LNL AP has it all over the Dillions for caliber change over speed and for short loading runs of a few hundred rounds. But before the first hour is out, I think the Dillions (at least my XL650 w/case feeder) would catch you.

So I guess the question, for ME, would be: Is the slower rounds per hour rate of the Hornady LNL AP (the Hornaday LNL AP would still be slower with a case feeder, wouldn't it?) worth the difference in price (300 dollars?)?

For ME it is, as my style of handloading is load a lot of what I want and then switch calibers. But if I loaded only a few hundred rounds before caliber changes I might think differently.

Is it worth the cost of a second XL650 to not have to go through the primer change over? No, not yet anyway.



Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Johnny Guest]

I never thought it would happen.

'Twould never have crossed my mind that a discussion of Dillon progressives would become tiresome. We're getting rather close, though.

Friends, IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER, whether you use the figure of $379 or $500 for an all-out, ready to go press, or a bare bones, minimalist assembly. This is getting kinda like trying to buy a new car or truck with JUST the options you want on it. At least, with the presses, you are not FORCED to take the Adirondack Lasso Luxury package to get the electric door locks and flame paint.

On the boards is the ONLY place I've ever read/heard people getting all het up about the difference in 326 rounds-per-hour and 571. At the range, someone comments, "yeah, over the weekend, I loaded up a thousand or so .45 ACP."

And, I change tool heads and shell plates in, what, 57 seconds flat? Really, more like ten minutes, because I want to stop for a smoke, or to refill my Diet Coke, or to make a phone call. Yup, changing primer sizes is a minor hassle, and I'd LIKE another press because of that. May take me four minutes, or nine-point six. Again, IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER. Caliber changeover races will NEVER become part of the winter olymplics.

Hornady and Dillon each produce fine products. Neither is truly cheap, but neither are they badly overpriced. Brand loyalty is okay, but let's not get wrapped around the axle about it.

Now, so long as things don't deterriorate to the personal attack stage, I'm not going to close the thread, so everyone have your say. Hey, read some of the knock-down, drag-out bickering in Legal & Political forum, and this discussion is truly nothing over which to become overwrought. It's just that, after about the third time something's said, by the same writer, it starts to wear a bit. Dillonophiles and Hornady worshipers CAN peacefully co-exist.

Best to all - -
Johnny

 

[stellarpod]

I anguished over whether to buy the Dillon XL650 or the Hornady LNL AP and decided on the Dillon, primarily for the following reasons:

1) I read several posts on different boards about primer issues on the Hornady.

2) I also heard that there was an issue with clearance for some dies in the 5th position on the Hornady. I believe this was factory crimp die related.

I do not regret buying the 650 and have spent far too much money hanging jewelry on it. That said, I have a great deal of respect for the products Hornady sells. I like their rifle dies and have converted my Rock Chucker to Lock-N-Load bushings and it has made all the difference.

Regarding change overs: I find the change over process to take about 15-20 minutes realistically. The Dillon powder measure is not that user friendly and could be improved. I could probably improve my time if someone challenged me, but I prefer a slow, methodical process. Once everything is set that's when the progressive starts to fly.

Zak Smith is exactly right regarding using a complete primer system change out to streamline any primer size changes. It makes all the difference.

Of course if you have to change the casefeed plate in the casefeeder that takes time too. But, it's my understanding that the Hornady casefeeder is essentially the same as the Dillon and would therefore require similar time to switch.

I believe there's room in the world for both camps. I don't believe anyone would go wrong with either.

stellarpod

 

[caseydog]

I'd sure like to hear from more 650 owners about the change-out strengths/weaknesses of their presses. After all, the 650 is more comparable to the LNL AP. Thanks.

Well I loaded with a friend on his 650 long before I bought my 550, changing primer sizes is somewhat of a pain, the shellplate and casefeeder plate are no problem at all, toolheads are simple and utterly reliable, but by far my biggest beef about the Dillon and it's the same 550 or 650 ~ when you radically change the charge weight/powder on the measure there is no indexing marks of any kind to help with repeatability, Dillon knows this and won't ever change it because (and I qoute from an e-mail) " indexing or micrometer type powder measures give some folks a false sense of security, we want to make sure people are weighing the charges so we don't use any indicators on the measure". Which is why I use the deluxe caliber change kits and put a measure on each toolhead , some inventive types have made micrometer dials for the measure (they sell on E-bay) and others have adapted the Hornady measure to the Dillon press.

After a time my above mentioned friend bought a second 650 and left the first set up for 9mm strictly for his class III , time was very valuable to him and when he had an hour he wanted to make rounds not change parts, i'm somewhat more relaxed so one Dillon is all i'll ever have ~ with multiple measures.
Lets face it we all hate something , you say you find reloading a chore , while I enjoy it . I find changing powder settings a chore on any measure , so I buy more measures , not just since i've gone progressive ~ I had 5 measures when I was on a single stage each marked with the load they were set for in my four most used calibers and the 5th was for experimenting with new loads and powders or small runs.


I'll go further and say I'd probably do just fine with a Hornady , but I learned on a friends Dillon , and I watched that Dillon go well into the 100,000 ++ round category with the only parts failing being the primer magazine tips , a primer punch spring and a detent ball spring, all replaced from a $20 spare parts kit which was promply refilled by Dillon at no charge. Your friend may be better served by a Hornady because you are right there with Hornady experience , you can help him point out user error vs. malfunction , which is better than talking to tech support from any company. Case

 

[MrPhil]

Hey! Read the original subject line!

The original subject sums UMF's entire purpose. Nothing more, nothing less. Mission accomplished!

 

[uglymofo]

Caseydog,

Thanks for the input. Can you guesstimate your hourly reload rate with and without the casefeeder? The Dillon site says 800-1000rd. That's gotta be with a feeder, right?

 

[Zak Smith]

On a 650 with a casefeeder, if you have loaded primer tubes or an automatic primer tube filler (RF100), 1000 per hour is easy.

-z

 

[Waitone]

Why the emphasis on speed? Is that your preferred means of evaluation? Having been through and engineering analysis such as you are currently engaged in, I must say it matters not one whit. Why? because with .45 ACP my cost of shooting went from $14.50 + tax per box to $3.50 per box including tax. The incremental cost of one reloader over another reloader disappears quickly when you save $12.09 / box.

Secondly, instantaneous rate of production is irrelevant. A newbie setting up a load and loading up several thousand rounds without any QC checks is going to get just exactly what they deserve. . . . .crushed primers, no power, long OAL's, . When I first started I wanted to see what rate of production I could achieve. I ran up something like 300 rounds without a weight check. Long story short, somewhere in there I ran out of powder. It is possible to produce by hand 600 rounds / hour with a GeeWhiz Galactic Reloader, but so what.

Second point>If you are recommending a reloader based on costs please be aware of a sack full of startup costs that has nothing do to with a reloader. Just off the top of my head, expect to pay for:
--safety glasses
--scales
--check weights
--calipers
--at least 2 reloading manuals
--bullet puller
--check guage
--case cleaner
--media separator
--allen wrenches
--primer flip tray
--primer loading tubes
--direct costs such as lead, primers, powder and brass.

Third and final point. Reloading if done properly become a separate hobby. For me it is not something I do to shoot. It is a hobby I enjoy separate from shooting. Look at it this way. Reloading and shooting is the pair of hobbies that permits to to build something and then have it disappear so you can build it again. Can't do that if you build birdhouses.