Direct challenge to the NFA

[N555]

Enter "USA vs Matthew R Hoover".
I bet they didn't think this was going to happen when they arrested Matthew Hoover for advertising a drawing of a machine gun on youtube.


So by this time next year we could be mail ordering machineguns. No not really. Would at least eliminate splitting hairs over "did that surf just put a stock or a pistol brace on that AR pistol". Or "it was a pistol brace but now it's a stock, because we said so, both times".

 

[Monac]

You know, if you are a political minority, sometimes getting everything you ever wanted is not a good thing. For example, the Supreme Court gave Southern slaveholders everything they ever wanted with the Dred Scott decision of 1857 (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford).

This was completely unacceptable to the people of the Northern, non-slave states. This was not because they cared about black people. It was because they did not want to compete with slave labor. As a result, they voted Republican and elected Abraham Lincoln in 1860.

That, in turn, was unacceptable to the people of the South, because they had been told by pro-slavery "fire-eater" politicians that Lincoln would take away their slaves, although he had pledged to do nothing of the kind. The Southerners decided that the results of democracy were no longer acceptable to them. They announced they were leaving the United States, and created their own government specifically to preserve slavery.

As a result, the Southern slaveowners lost everything by 1865. Not just slaves, but sometimes everything they owned and their lives too. So did many, many other people, because of the slaveowner extremism and intransigence.

Although the parallels are obvious, I will point out that many people do NOT want the lethality of legally available weapons increased. This is not because they "hate guns", or want to impose "tyranny". It is because they are sick of the massacres that people with legally available highly lethal weapons easily can commit. They fear for their own lives, and for the lives of their children. I think it would be foolish to ignore that. We have lived in peace with this law for 88 years. I don't see any practical point in outraging the public by having it declared unconstitutional.

PS - I am not going to vote in the poll. The answer in favor of retaining the NFA is phrased in a loaded, "have you stopped beating your wife?" manner.

edited for spelling and grammar

 

[Nuclear]

Some have lived in peace, others lost their freedoms, had their pet, child and wife murdered by the government.

 

[Zerodefect]

I don't care either way. I can get anything NFA that I want to.

It's unconstitutional. Has been forever. It's fascinating how our gov't is constantly trampling the constitution. I guess if everybody is too weak and inept to do anything about it.........

 

[AlexanderA]

I agree that the complete abolition of the NFA is a "bridge too far." It can be reformed, though, by (a) repealing the Hughes Amendment, and (b) streamlining the procedures so that approval can be received in a few days.

Prior to the Hughes Amendment (1986), depending on the state, machine guns were affordable and not too difficult to obtain.

We can also chip away at the NFA by deleting silencers and SBR's.

These are legislative solutions and not necessarily court-ordered solutions.

 

[Monac]

Some have lived in peace, others lost their freedoms, had their pet, child and wife murdered by the government.

Really? How many people, that you know of or can point to a cite of, Nuclear?

 

[Nuclear]

Lost their freedoms, I don’t know the number exactly, but I do know of one guy who got arrested and deported back home to a country no one goes to willingly, who then imprisoned him (we hope that’s all they did to him).

As for the second part, Randy Weaver. And maybe those poor souls at Waco, depending on if you believe the FBI & BATFE or not.

 

[DeepSouth]

Never mind

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

It would be nice if they would take supressors and SBR'S off the NFA list. A lot more companies would make supressors and the prices would drop. Or even making them with out worry would be nice.

 

[Zerodefect]

Prices would drop because they'd just make them out of aluminum or steel for $80.

They're expensive because you want your nighmarishly hard to get NFA stuff to last. Suppressors really don't need to be made of aircraft grade titanium.

 

[gotboostvr]

Prices would drop because they'd just make them out of aluminum or steel for $80.

They're expensive because you want your nighmarishly hard to get NFA stuff to last. Suppressors really don't need to be made of aircraft grade titanium.

Kind of.

At some point though, economy of scale kicks in and the nicer ones will be cheaper. Not $100, but maybe $500 instead of $750 for a decently constructed one or $800 instead of $1000 for a real nice one.

 

[Golfanaticshooter]

I don't care either way. I can get anything NFA that I want to.

It's unconstitutional. Has been forever. It's fascinating how our gov't is constantly trampling the constitution. I guess if everybody is too weak and inept to do anything about it.........

Let me finish, we wont have it anymore.

 

[dogtown tom]

Prices would drop because they'd just make them out of aluminum or steel for $80.

The overwhelming majority of silencers are already made of aluminum and/or steel........and they aren't $80.
Heck, one of the heaviest, cheapest steel centerfire silencers sold is the Black Aces Tactical "Po Boy", basically a Home Depot washers and pipe spacers build and dealer cost runs $150.

They're expensive because you want your nighmarishly hard to get NFA stuff to last.

They're expensive not because of the raw materials.
"nightmarishly hard to get"? Oh please.

Suppressors really don't need to be made of aircraft grade titanium.

Who ever said they do?
I've been selling silencers for a decade and have never heard any manufacturer say that. Titanium IS lighter, and IS desirable when used for certain applications where weight is a priority.

 

[AlexanderA]

The NFA could be a template for the gun controllers in dealing with so-called "assault weapons." Is this good or bad? I don't know --all I can say is that it's complicated. Depending on how the whole thing is negotiated, we could come out ahead. Could be a way for both sides to get what they want.

(Stand by for the predictable responses.)

 

[N555]

The overwhelming majority of silencers are already made of aluminum and/or steel........and they aren't $80.
Heck, one of the heaviest, cheapest steel centerfire silencers sold is the Black Aces Tactical "Po Boy", basically a Home Depot washers and pipe spacers build and dealer cost runs $150.


They're expensive not because of the raw materials.
"nightmarishly hard to get"? Oh please.



Who ever said they do?
I've been selling silencers for a decade and have never heard any manufacturer say that. Titanium IS lighter, and IS desirable when used for certain applications where weight is a priority.

I think he means silencers are hard to get because of the the nearly year long process.

 

[dogtown tom]

I think he means silencers are hard to get because of the the nearly year long process.

"hard to get" has nothing to do with wait times, much less "nightmarishly hard to get".
It's a form and a one time tax payment and is "shall issue".
The length of the wait time is entirely dependent on the number of NFA applications pending. In the decade I've been doing NFA I've seen paper Form 4 processing times from 6 months to the current 12 month. During the past decade the average for paper Form 4's has been less than 8 months.

With the reintroduction of eForm 4's its still a wait, just not as long.

 

[N555]

I'll say the government is making them hard to get for no reason. A pointless delay of up to a year on top of all the other BS makes them unreasonably difficult to get.
Who thinks that's reasonable?
Probably just you.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I'll say the government is making them hard to get for no reason. A pointless delay of up to a year on top of all the other BS makes them unreasonably difficult to get.
Who thinks that's reasonable?
Probably just you.

Well, my sample size is limited, but my experience with the actual people doing the work at BATFE has been positive. My perception is that they do their best to follow the law and work as quickly as possible, but like most places they are understaffed with more work than they can accomplish in a timely manner, handicapped by typical government inefficiencies due to monopolistic forces inherent in government, and kind of stuck implementing whatever directives they receive from their politically appointed leadership and whoever the current presidential administration is - not that there's someone literally saying "How can we slow-walk all this as much as possible..."

 

[N555]

Nothing against the people. They have a mountain of paperwork, all by design.
At $200 a pop it should be quite worth while to do them expediently (that means hire more people).

 

[gotboostvr]

Nothing against the people. They have a mountain of paperwork, all by design.
At $200 a pop it should be quite worth while to do them expediently (that means hire more people).

If I remember correctly, the $200 for the tax stamp dosen't go to the ATF themselves.

 

[CapnMac]

the $200 for the tax stamp dosen't go to the ATF themselves

Not anymore. Back when BATF was part of IRS, it did. BATFE still collects it, though. They just deposit it into the General Fund nowadays.

 

[dogtown tom]

I'll say the government is making them hard to get for no reason. .

"no reason"? Try the National Firearms Act of 1934. If you don't like it, call your congressman.
And again, its not hard to get.

A pointless delay of up to a year on top of all the other BS makes them unreasonably difficult to get.

If they were "unreasonably difficult to get"......why do more than 99% of applicants get their NFA firearm.
You confuse waiting and inconvenience with difficult. That's just silly.

Who thinks that's reasonable?
Probably just you

You confuse an understanding of the process, of federal law and ATF regulations with agreement. That's dumb.
So is thinking NFA firearms are "difficult to get". If you can acquire a Title I firearm, you can get a Title II firearm. (your state law permitting)

But then again some people think that getting a Whataburger on a Friday night is difficult. Waiting is really difficult for some.

 

[dogtown tom]

Nothing against the people. They have a mountain of paperwork, all by design.
At $200 a pop it should be quite worth while to do them expediently (that means hire more people).

See, this is why you have a lot of reading to do.
ATF doesn't keep the $$$ generated by NFA taxes.........never has. Oddly, neither does any other federal agency that collects taxes, fees or even the sale of Coca-Cola at a national park. It goes into the general fund. Only Congress can authorize how that revenue is spent.

Like any other government agency, hiring is restricted by their budget. That budget requires approval by Congress. If NFA applications increase tenfold.....that doesn't mean ATF can run out and hire 10X more employees. Unlike a business, government doesn't have to run fast, efficiently and with great customer service to be here next year. And yes, EVERY year for decades, ATF has asked for additional NFA data processing, document examiners and system upgrades. Your congressman can tell you why other expenses were more important.

And "$200 a pop"? Dude, ATF operates at a loss with NFA firearms. Meaning the expense of operating the NFA Division exceeds the funds collected.

 

[dogtown tom]

Well, my sample size is limited, but my experience with the actual people doing the work at BATFE has been positive. My perception is that they do their best to follow the law and work as quickly as possible, but like most places they are understaffed with more work than they can accomplish in a timely manner, handicapped by typical government inefficiencies due to monopolistic forces inherent in government, and kind of stuck implementing whatever directives they receive from their politically appointed leadership and whoever the current presidential administration is - not that there's someone literally saying "How can we slow-walk all this as much as possible..."

I agree. As would 99% of those who deal with ATF on a daily and weekly basis. Industry Operations and NFA Division are the only ones an FFL really wants to see anyway. In my fourteen years of being a licensed dealer I've had two initial interviews and four compliance inspections involving about ten different ATF Industry Operations Investigators (beancounters). All were extremely professional.

 

[N555]

Calling Congress critters is a waste of time, especially in my case.
Donate money to organizations that actually do something.