Disengaging/Grappling

[Loosedhorse]

Got it now.

I can't run, because I might not be able to. I can't break his hold, because I might not be able to (if I could break his hold, then I'd run--and we've already said I can't do that). Even though I can't break his hold, I can't strike or kick, because that's not PC--even though he means me harm, and I should have the techniques and principles to be able to kill him.

So...I should throw him. There it is: answered.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

Got it now.

Obviously the only thing you have is the tendency to be purposefully obtuse on the issue.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Well, that's one perspective.

It is odd, however, (just to me, perhaps) that, according to you, each of my ideas is invalid for some reason. There's always something I haven't considered, or am being obtuse about. Never mostly right, always flat wrong.

It could be "that the only thing I have" is what you say. I see a different explanation.

If you feel my summary in #76 is incorrect, you had (and have) a chance to explain why. Instead, you call me obtuse. Perhaps because the summary is correct, and there's nothing to explain.

(Shall I predict another insult from you?)

 

[NCPatrolAR]

It is odd, however, (just to me, perhaps) that, according to you, each of my ideas is invalid for some reason. There's always something I haven't considered, or am being obtuse about. Never mostly right, always flat wrong.

Your ideas invalid? Not all of them. I can see making the case for trying to disengage (if you look back at my posts you will see me say so), but I also realize that there is a time where disengagement might not be the best course of action.

I also understand that disengagement can, and will most often come, at the completion of some technique or series of techniques. Where I've seen people have the most success with this is after the use of some form of grappling. As an example, I cant break a guy's grasp on my clothing. I am able to conduct something like a foot sweep that puts him on his back though. With him on his back I'm now able to "lengthen" my body by straightening my posture and pushing my hips forward which enables me to break the grasp.

Of course I could always try to break the guy's grasp via open or closed hand strikes to the face/head, possibly the arms, and/or low line attacks. This can be effective, however I've seen a great number of people be able to weather this barrage of attacks and still be in the fight/maintain their grasp on clothing. While everyone has a puncher's chance, striking might not always be the most successful course of action.

When it comes to technique being PC; this is certainly something that needs to be looked at. With the widespread use of cameras, images of strikes being landed to stop certain assaults could easily cost people in certain occupations their careers. In the case of a school; not many administrators are going to keep a teacher around that breaks a student's hold on their clothing through a strike or series of strikes that gives the perception of an adult "beating up" a "child". As I mentioned before; strikes, to include open hand techniques such as shoves, will often appear much more violent than some form of grappling.

It all boils down to knowing the arena you are operating in, knowing what you can and cant do, and choosing the best option.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Your ideas invalid? Not all of them.

Generous.

It all boils down to knowing the arena you are operating in, knowing what you can and cant do, and choosing the best option.

Which is what I was doing, but you've declared (some of? most of?) my ideas invalid anyway.

Well, except: I must admit that I haven't figured out which "arena" will I be operating in. How do I find out what my fight will look like? Would sure help me prepare for it!

 

[Fred Fuller]

Enough with the attitude and nattering, folks. Let it go.

 

[Readyrod]

The priority in this case was to be pc. It wouldn't be in all cases and I want the appropriate toolset. Number one priority is to disengage. Number two, if I can't disengage, is to throw or grapple, whichever is most appropriate. After that I guess the hitting starts. Even in a pc situation with a student there is a certain point where the possibility of getting seriously hurt overrules the dealing with the lawyers thing. In this case it was when the student had me near the door. There is no way I was going to let him get me out into the hallway. Also, the student thing that brought up this discussion also showed me that I need to know this stuff for when I'm out in the street.
So all of the suggestions in the thread are appreciated. Pc or not.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

True, there is a time when you toss out the threat of lawyers.

Training with wise teachers will help you to understand and steer the components of aggression. It's probably the most valuable segment of any training I've received.

Even the physicality of it is a battle of wills to see who can make the other guy's motivation to be aggressive cease. So, it's always an internal struggle, ultimately. It's seldom really about whose Kung-Fu is better.

 

[conw]

Number one priority is to disengage. Number two, if I can't disengage, is to throw or grapple, whichever is most appropriate.

That is definitely a good set of priorities. Hopefully my point came through that regardless of order of priorities, a skill-set including grappling experience will further your aims if you encounter people who want to grab you and not let go.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Even in a pc situation with a student there is a certain point where the possibility of getting seriously hurt overrules the dealing with the lawyers thing.

That's the core, for me.

 

[Diggers]

Unfortunately PC does exist for many physical situations. OR as it is called in my field of work "appropriate force" for the situation, which is some what subjective.

In an education setting the use of force is going to be VERY touchy and Readyrod is right to have concern.

An example of PC issues and use of force here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tljGF2TLF8

Was this officer justified in that use of force? Legally, yes....BUT it sure didn't look good, and the public tends to have a negative gut reaction to seeing that kind of thing from people who have power over other people.

Now, did that officer HAVE to punch that girl in the face to gain control of the the situation? Probably not, IF he had other tools in the toolbox, like joint locks, leg sweeps and the such.

As far as PC goes, grabbing the girls arm and then her falling down plays WAAAY better on the news then a slow motion fist to the head.

 

[conw]

Interestingly this quote from Southnarc appeared in a parallel discussion; I think it sums up one side of the debate occurring on pgs. 2-3 quite nicely.

Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
The irony of those who choose to ignore vertical or horizontal grappling is that it's not like our goals are incongruent. We just understand that the best way to "un-grapple" is to.....grapple. Mastery of entanglement essentially means that I can tangle and untangle when I choose to. If biting, groin striking, titty twisters, and purple nurples all fail, then you are still stuck in a ****** position. Here's the other thing to:

You cannot replicate or predict any foul tactic consistently in a training environment just like you cannot do same with any weapon. It's not repeatable and not predictable and thus it becomes a belief system. And just like any other religion it's an issue of faith versus fact.

 

[Readyrod]

Well thanks all for the info. I'm going to get back in shape, read some of the suggestions, and prob check out Judo for a start. If you have any suggestions for hitting disciplines I'd be grateful to hear them.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

One of the most comprehensive striking systems will be Muay Thai

 

[Deanimator]

I'd go with something that's not so narrowly focused that it limits your ability to respond to likely threats.

I've seen judo fail or be marginal on several occasions.

Something like hapkido, hwarangdo, kuk sul won, or shorinji kempo offers you a rich mix of strikes, kicks, joint locks and throws.

I bought So Doshin's (portrayed by Chiba Shin'ichi in the movie "The Killing Machine") book on shorinji kempo when I was in college. The joint locks and throws in that book have served me well for something like thirty years. The last time was over ten years ago when an unstable co-worker, "playing", came at me with a document spike. I used a gyakute nage on him. His feet scraped the ceiling of the work trailer we were in as he went over. There were no more games.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

The problem with systems such as Hapkido, Kuk Sul, etc is the lack of oppertunity to test the techniques against a fully resisting opponent. With systems such Judo, Brazilian JiuJitsu, etc you have the ability to find out what works more often under stress than with other systems.

 

[david58]

My biggest take-away from my retention class experience is to be very vigilant, and make sure that nobody gets the chance to make the reach. I am too old, not martial-arts trained, and was severely injured in the retention class - MAJOR shoulder reconstruction required. Moral: don't get in a spot where I have to fight for the gun, and if I do it is life or death.

 

[Deanimator]

The problem with systems such as Hapkido, Kuk Sul, etc is the lack of oppertunity to test the techniques against a fully resisting opponent. With systems such Judo, Brazilian JiuJitsu, etc you have the ability to find out what works more often under stress than with other systems.

The joint locking and throwing techniques of jiu jitsu, chin na, shorinji kempo, hapkido, etc., are very similar. If I can test a wrist lock in jiu jitsu, there's no reason why I can't do the same thing in hwarang do.

With proper protective equipment, there isn't much you can't practice.

 

[Readyrod]

I know that judo isn't perfect but it may be hard to find schools that teach some of the less well known martial arts.

 

[scythefwd]

aikido. Combine that with a striking art, doesn't matter what it is. Pretty much all systems are the same if you take the time to look at them. The primary focus of the art changes (TKD uses a lot of high kicks, more kicks, Okinowan karate uses waist high kicks more often than high and body change, but they are still just kicks and punches) due to where the art was developed but the basics are the same when you boil it down to the essence of it.

Aikido is "grappling" but it focuses more on you keeping upright vs. going down with your opponent. Judo is the same way, but if you start doing throws, you're going down to the dirt. Against one opponent, may the best man win. Against more than one opponent.... while you're choking out your attacker on the ground, his parter is kicking in your head.

That said, I'm not sure you want to open back up. In a defense of life situation, if you get room to draw, so do they. Get in tight... most people don't know how to fight in that close. Do as much damage as you can in as little time as possible. Most people aren't prepared for that type of mindset. Every art is based around rules. Never seen one teach biting. Hey, it's your life... fight like a rabid badger, not a gentleman.

There is one or two systems of fighting I'd rather not close in on (get hugging tight into the attacker, biting distance, use elbows and knees, forehead, teeth, etc..). One is muy thai. They know how to use their knees and elbows. Unless I thought I could take a muy thai artist down too the ground, I'm not going to try and close that thight to them. In that fight, my only goal is to get to the ground with them. I can't take the beating, and I do have ground training.