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Yo Mama
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Dissapointed and no longer buying Remington
- Thread starter Yo Mama
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I too have had issues with the failings of current manufacturing practices. Unfortunately the state of our recent and current economy requires companies to cut corners that all to often go too far.
I have found a solution by shopping for the most part, the used market offering guns made before the current decade, and sometimes going back into the pre-WW2 era.
I suggest that you don't get discouraged, just change you're focus.
I have found a solution by shopping for the most part, the used market offering guns made before the current decade, and sometimes going back into the pre-WW2 era.
I suggest that you don't get discouraged, just change you're focus.
outlawjw
Member
I have had two of the 700's that would shoot when you close the bolt or when the safety was flipped to off they would go bang. The design of the walker trigger was made bad by a manufacturing prosses that saved money but changed the size of a part. The designer said in court the original design as designed was absolutely safe but after the prosses change he say's it is not now safe. Rem will replace it with a good one. I still own several great guns great triggers too , to me
Thanks for the links.
I don't give much creedence to problems when a firearm functions flawlessly with full power ammo but has issues with lower priced economy fodder. It's likely the #1 cause of issues across the firearms forums and reported by hundreds of posters every year.
Gun size and slide mass seem to affect it to a large degree. Very few report large frame autos unable to handle the cheaper stuff - the S&W 3Gen guns are even reputed to chamber an empty case, and having just purchased one, I intend to find out. But very few owners of pocket pistols have said that low powered "white box" ammo will do a good job.
Case in point, I am deliberately breaking in a new CW380 Kahr with Monarch steel case, and it often will not lock back on the last round. Hornady American Gunner has no such problem so far. It's apparent the cheap fodder simply doesn't have enough power to properly cycle the gun.
And that is exactly what we see over and over in a lot of test reports - guns built for self defense full power loads don't work so well shooting cheap stuff that most of us would never consider for carry. Cheap target and practice ammo does has one benefit, tho - you get to practice malfunction drills, and you just never know when one will happen on the range. There's no anticipating it - you didn't load a dummy and can't count down to where it is in the mag.
I'm no fan of the R51 in looks or it's concept of operation but i wouldn't fault it for not handling low powered ammo, and certainly not a new pistol fresh out of the box with little previous wear. Like it or not, guns do need breaking in, and guns are not built to function perfectly with just any cartridge you stuff in the magazine. Smaller guns are even more prone to having a precisely defined gas pressure to successfully and reliably operate.
No doubt about it overall, tho - Remington has fallen on hard times, and that explanation of corporate running it as a strip mining operation is about the best I've heard. The results have been more than obvious.
I don't give much creedence to problems when a firearm functions flawlessly with full power ammo but has issues with lower priced economy fodder. It's likely the #1 cause of issues across the firearms forums and reported by hundreds of posters every year.
Gun size and slide mass seem to affect it to a large degree. Very few report large frame autos unable to handle the cheaper stuff - the S&W 3Gen guns are even reputed to chamber an empty case, and having just purchased one, I intend to find out. But very few owners of pocket pistols have said that low powered "white box" ammo will do a good job.
Case in point, I am deliberately breaking in a new CW380 Kahr with Monarch steel case, and it often will not lock back on the last round. Hornady American Gunner has no such problem so far. It's apparent the cheap fodder simply doesn't have enough power to properly cycle the gun.
And that is exactly what we see over and over in a lot of test reports - guns built for self defense full power loads don't work so well shooting cheap stuff that most of us would never consider for carry. Cheap target and practice ammo does has one benefit, tho - you get to practice malfunction drills, and you just never know when one will happen on the range. There's no anticipating it - you didn't load a dummy and can't count down to where it is in the mag.
I'm no fan of the R51 in looks or it's concept of operation but i wouldn't fault it for not handling low powered ammo, and certainly not a new pistol fresh out of the box with little previous wear. Like it or not, guns do need breaking in, and guns are not built to function perfectly with just any cartridge you stuff in the magazine. Smaller guns are even more prone to having a precisely defined gas pressure to successfully and reliably operate.
No doubt about it overall, tho - Remington has fallen on hard times, and that explanation of corporate running it as a strip mining operation is about the best I've heard. The results have been more than obvious.
Screwball
Member
I put current Remington with current S&W...
I love my old Remington shotguns, being I've hunted with both 11-87s for years. Only issue I had was the plastic follower jamming in the mouth of the magazine tube in cold weather... but a stainless follower fixed that (did it on my 870, as well).
My 870 Police is actually my bed gun, and I completely trust. It was redone in NP3 Plus, and I've shot it enough to feel comfortable with it (I also was brought up in the first part of my career with them in our cars).
I just picked up a Model 7 from my FFL, who bought it used. Early 1990s production, and in great shape. Going to change out the scope/mount, and use the gun for mid-extended range shooting (max... 400 yards).
My father did get one of their 1911s maybe a year or two after they first came out. Quality was ok, and the gun is nice... but I opted to go with Ruger for my 1911, instead.
I was looking at picking up a 20 Gauge 870 for new shooters that go to the range with me, but if I do, I'm going to find one used... and not somewhat current production. Seeing threads like this, and knowing where Remington has gone, really doesn't make me confident in their current guns. So, I'll just buy the stuff made when they were respected.
As I mentioned S&W, I refuse to buy a current production revolver through them. The internal lock isn't my cup of tea, but with the barrel production, I rather have older revolvers. The last revolver I bought from them was my no-lock 642-1... which I believe was 2005ish production. Love my 629-1, which is what I'd want in a revolver. I really like those eight shot .357 revolvers they put out over the years (TRR8 and R8), which is surprising, since I'm not a .357 Magnum fan, but won't touch them with someone else's money.
M&Ps and ARs, I feel differently with. Have two M&Ps, and I feel their ARs are a very good value. Just I won't purchase a new production revolver from them.
I love my old Remington shotguns, being I've hunted with both 11-87s for years. Only issue I had was the plastic follower jamming in the mouth of the magazine tube in cold weather... but a stainless follower fixed that (did it on my 870, as well).
My 870 Police is actually my bed gun, and I completely trust. It was redone in NP3 Plus, and I've shot it enough to feel comfortable with it (I also was brought up in the first part of my career with them in our cars).
I just picked up a Model 7 from my FFL, who bought it used. Early 1990s production, and in great shape. Going to change out the scope/mount, and use the gun for mid-extended range shooting (max... 400 yards).
My father did get one of their 1911s maybe a year or two after they first came out. Quality was ok, and the gun is nice... but I opted to go with Ruger for my 1911, instead.
I was looking at picking up a 20 Gauge 870 for new shooters that go to the range with me, but if I do, I'm going to find one used... and not somewhat current production. Seeing threads like this, and knowing where Remington has gone, really doesn't make me confident in their current guns. So, I'll just buy the stuff made when they were respected.
As I mentioned S&W, I refuse to buy a current production revolver through them. The internal lock isn't my cup of tea, but with the barrel production, I rather have older revolvers. The last revolver I bought from them was my no-lock 642-1... which I believe was 2005ish production. Love my 629-1, which is what I'd want in a revolver. I really like those eight shot .357 revolvers they put out over the years (TRR8 and R8), which is surprising, since I'm not a .357 Magnum fan, but won't touch them with someone else's money.
M&Ps and ARs, I feel differently with. Have two M&Ps, and I feel their ARs are a very good value. Just I won't purchase a new production revolver from them.
Omaha-BeenGlockin
Member
Have a couple 870's made in the last 2 years or so and they are OK-----won't touch a Remington rifle or pistol with 10 ft pole though
I also thoroughly inspected the 870's before purchasing them.
Smith needs to do away with the awful lock.
Colt seems to be doing good stuff despite their cash problems.
Ruger seems to be hit and miss--revolvers are still good---autos not so much other than the .22's which still need some user tweeking to make them right-----considering a possible purchase of an American rifle though.
I also thoroughly inspected the 870's before purchasing them.
Smith needs to do away with the awful lock.
Colt seems to be doing good stuff despite their cash problems.
Ruger seems to be hit and miss--revolvers are still good---autos not so much other than the .22's which still need some user tweeking to make them right-----considering a possible purchase of an American rifle though.
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I've owned many Remingtons, both rifles and shotguns and have yet to have a bad one. My 1100 20 gauge was a bit of a problem, but only if I didn't keep it clean. Have some 870s, all perfect. I have three 700s and a 541S, also all perfect. Sorry you fellas are having so much trouble, but that has not been my experience. And, I getting ready to buy an R51. Call me crazy, but I love my Remington products.
RavenTai
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You have misread my short hand. Partly my fault.
What I have Witnessed over the past few decades is that leadership positions at many companies are considered fungible.
Some of it is true, managing people, and burocracy, having contacts with investors, regulators, logistics, marketing, etc can be carried from industry to industry.
But there are also specific stratagem for each industry, the nuances of each and it's customer base are unique.
For example I worked for a major airline that hired a CEO who was previously a banker, he had no airline experience, it was dissasterous.
I get the feeling that remington is run by a board that has little interest in firearms, they are just widgets to produce and market under a brand with very old/deep name recognition.
Where are this generatins John Browning? Bill Ruger? Oliver Winchester? Ronnie Barret?
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
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CoalTrain49
Member
I won't buy a new Remington. I've own several older ones and they were all excellent rifles and shotguns. I think they went south about 40 years ago. If you want a good one you have to go back a few years.
bikemutt
Member
I'm now Remington-free. After two years waiting for them to make good on my R51 I went as far as opening the box, looked it over and traded it for a pre-lock S&W revolver. Had a 700 .308 which was a decent rifle, replaced it with a Savage 10 I like better. Traded the 870 Express for a KelTec KSG.
Oldman1151
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I really like my 870 Wingmasters. I have one in 20 ga. and 12 ga. Both extremely reliable guns.
Steve51
Member
I have two older 870's (12 gauge & 20 gauge) that have been flawless. About 3 years ago, I won an 887 in a Friends of NRA raffle. It was subject to slam fires and was recalled. It took Remington two months to put the upgraded bolt in the shotgun and return it to me.
A few years ago, I purchased a bulk box of their .22LR golden bullet. It was the worst .22 ammo I ever had. Probably 20% failed to fire on the first try - some never would fire.
I still purchase their STS shotgun shells and their copper sabot slugs.
I have no intentions of buying any current Remington firearms. Their quality control issues are not worth the gamble for me.
A few years ago, I purchased a bulk box of their .22LR golden bullet. It was the worst .22 ammo I ever had. Probably 20% failed to fire on the first try - some never would fire.
I still purchase their STS shotgun shells and their copper sabot slugs.
I have no intentions of buying any current Remington firearms. Their quality control issues are not worth the gamble for me.
SSN Vet
Member
I've actually never owned a Remington...
My Marlin 360C is pre-Cerberus and is a thing of beauty.
I opted for a Savage over a Remington when it came time for a bolt action rifle. No regrets there.
And I found a really clean Winchester 1300XTR for $200 when I wanted a pump 12 ga. Though the Wingmaster with the LC barrel does look like a very nice shotgun.
It took the Belgians and the Japanese to save Winchester... perhaps the same will be true of Remington.
My Marlin 360C is pre-Cerberus and is a thing of beauty.
I opted for a Savage over a Remington when it came time for a bolt action rifle. No regrets there.
And I found a really clean Winchester 1300XTR for $200 when I wanted a pump 12 ga. Though the Wingmaster with the LC barrel does look like a very nice shotgun.
It took the Belgians and the Japanese to save Winchester... perhaps the same will be true of Remington.
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HetchHetchy
Member
Remington was long owned by E. I. du Pont de Nemours, a rather conservative, manufacturing-based conglomerate. Rifle and shotgun innovations were slow but very steady for decades.
Then du Pont sold Remington to the private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management. In the drive to make money they made a number of serious missteps including:
The poor transfer of Marlin manufacturing expertise once they bought Marlin. This caused problems with the Model 60, their centerfire lever rifles, etc.
The release of the hideous R51 remake.
Problems with the Model 597 .22 rifle that took forever to iron-out.
(I think the "problems" with the M700 are largely due to hysterics.)
All that said, it does appear that Remington is now on the right track.
The Model 597 is in my opinion a better .22 rifle than the Ruger 10/22. Same for the Marlin Model 60. Take a good look at how Ruger has cheapened the 10/22 over the past 15+ years.
The R51 has now been reintroduced and it's not only an excellent pistol, it's priced right too.
The M700 is still better than the M77 from Ruger.
So they are learning, but it's been a painful process.
HetchHetchy
Member
I'm certain they had prints -- they had to build to something. Now, whether those prints were up to date and actually reflected what was being built is a whole other thing. I suspect Marlin's manufacturing processes were also poorly documented and in poor shape. I also suspect they depended a lot on the ongoing ingenuity of folks on the shop floor -- all undocumented perhaps.
When Marlin was purchased and their New Haven factory closed, different lines went to different places. The Model 60s built in Madison North Carolina were hideous. Now that they are being built in Huntsville, AL, they are remarkable gun for the price -- with better fit, finish and accuracy than a 10/22.
herrwalther
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A fellow I work with is a former employee of the Remington factory in Alabama.The more I talk to him, the more convinced I am to never buy Remington anything ever again.
Cannibul
Member
Maybe there's a reason he's a former employee.
Panzerschwein
member
All I know is my new production Remington 870 Police is in fact, a smooth and reliable pump-action fighting shotgun:
I'm sure it's just GOT to be utter trash compared to older 870 Police guns, but hey, sorry, several hundred rounds of full-power buckshot later and I just don't see it. It's a great shell shucker.
I'm sure it's just GOT to be utter trash compared to older 870 Police guns, but hey, sorry, several hundred rounds of full-power buckshot later and I just don't see it. It's a great shell shucker.
RA40
Member
We can say the cost cutting has had an impact on not only Remington but the many others. Some manage to be pretty consistent but we hear stories and that is the product-company life cycle. One hopes that they recover and the product improves. Otherwise they get bought out and if it continues to go south they go bye-bye.
HetchHetchy
Member
How long was he there? The Huntsville plant is new...
My only Remington is an 870 Express 20 ga (circa 2000). It is my primary clay gun and has been as reliable as an anvil with el cheapo Wally World Federal and Winny fare. I love it.
/ it doesn't like ejecting Herters ammo every now and again. Solved that by not buying that junk.
/ it doesn't like ejecting Herters ammo every now and again. Solved that by not buying that junk.
Fella's;
Remington's been on a downhill slide for decades. I got caught by them in the 70's. Bought a 5mm magnum, skipped meals & sweated blood to finally get it. But, when I did get it, it was wonderful. However, since the Ogres of Ilion couldn't see fit to license the gun or ammo to anybody else, it withered on the marketing vine & the guns were only produced for about 3 years. Hornady, witness the .17HMR, is laughing all the way to the bank every month. Then, to compound the failure, Remmy quit making 5mm ammo only a very few years later, leaving the owners of the guns hangin' in the wind. I don't like Remington as a company & have been boycotting their products since the 1970's. Lots of money spent with other firearms manufacturer's but I will not willingly contribute to Remington's bottom line. Unless I can make that contribution be written in red ink.
900F
Remington's been on a downhill slide for decades. I got caught by them in the 70's. Bought a 5mm magnum, skipped meals & sweated blood to finally get it. But, when I did get it, it was wonderful. However, since the Ogres of Ilion couldn't see fit to license the gun or ammo to anybody else, it withered on the marketing vine & the guns were only produced for about 3 years. Hornady, witness the .17HMR, is laughing all the way to the bank every month. Then, to compound the failure, Remmy quit making 5mm ammo only a very few years later, leaving the owners of the guns hangin' in the wind. I don't like Remington as a company & have been boycotting their products since the 1970's. Lots of money spent with other firearms manufacturer's but I will not willingly contribute to Remington's bottom line. Unless I can make that contribution be written in red ink.
900F
herrwalther
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Cannibul said:
Too far of a drive to work. So he changed jobs. His lack of firearm knowledge is more a reason for me to not buy Remington. He worked building their ARs. His claim was they tested the barrels with a hot round that was "more powerful than a fitty (sic) cal."
HetchHetchy said:
Not sure. Before I got my current job I was looking at working for the Huntsville Remington plant. Would have been a pretty far drive for me though.
dh1633pm
Contributing Member
I have friends that work at the plant in Ilion. They have the opinion that management has a ship first, fix later mentality. Until that changes, nothings going to change. Once something is sorted out, then things work, but if you get one of those problems rifles, it could be a management decision. Like the pin used on the orginal R51 sights. Testing at the plant showed it to be a weak point. Instead of fixing, they shipped and fixed later.
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