Divorce and a 4473. What would you do?

[Ranger Roberts]

Thanks for all your replies fellas. I'm pretty sure that he is going to do the 4473 either way because that is what he is most comfortable with. As always, the folks at THR always respond with insightful and helpful information! Thanks again all!

 

[Hanzo581]

A 4473 may not be required, but I sure would have it listed in the marital assets as to who gets them...no matter how "civil" the split is seeming right now.

 

[MAKster]

Spending $25 for a FFL transfer is an easy and inexpensive way to create a legal record that you do not own the firearm anymore. That $25 will be a lot less expensive than the lawyer fees if years later the ex-wife gives that gun to some dirtbag boyfriend who uses it in a crime and it is traced back to you.

 

[CoalTrain49]

As others have said. A 4473 is a federal document (ATF) for the specific purpose of purchasing a firearm from a dealer (FFL). Your BIL isn't doing that. If the state law requires you to do it like ours does in order to transfer a firearm then he needs to do it, otherwise a waste of time and money. Bill of sale signed by your BIL and his ex with both parties DL numbers, firearm description and Serial number is all you need. Remember it can't be a legal sale unless both parties reside in the same state. Interstate sale is a no-no by fed regulation unless run through a FFL.

 

[45_auto]

That $25 will be a lot less expensive than the lawyer fees if years later the ex-wife gives that gun to some dirtbag boyfriend who uses it in a crime and it is traced back to you.

Not sure what kind of lifestyle you live, but my personal experience with a gun that I previously owned that was used in a crime went something like this:

Sheriff's Deputy: "Mr. 45-auto, do you own a Blastenheimer serial number 123456?"
Me: "No, I traded that away about 10 years ago to Mr. Makster."
Sheriff's Deputy: "Okay, thanks"

Took about 10 seconds and didn't cost me a dime.

Obviously if you have outstanding warrants or an extensive previous history on the wrong side of the law, your experience may differ.

 

[herrwalther]

An ex girlfriend of mine bought me a gun for my birthday. When we broke up I wanted it obviously, because it was gifted to me and I was the only one who carried it and wanted it. And she would give it to me, if I paid her almost full retail price for it, and the firearm was a year old by the time we broke up. She also believed the fear mongering about there being a "gun registry" so we did the transfer at an FFL with a new 4473. Gun shop made an easy $25 just for watching me sign a piece of paper. In the end I am glad I paid for it. She was very vindictive and used everything in our relationship against me. At one point she tried having me arrested for domestic violence. The extra 4473 is a nice little piece of security in CYA: Covering your a**

 

[MICHAEL T]

Not sure what kind of lifestyle you live, but my personal experience with a gun that I previously owned that was used in a crime went something like this:

Sheriff's Deputy: "Mr. 45-auto, do you own a Blastenheimer serial number 123456?"
Me: "No, I traded that away about 10 years ago to Mr. Makster."
Sheriff's Deputy: "Okay, thanks"

Took about 10 seconds and didn't cost me a dime.

Obviously if you have outstanding warrants or an extensive previous history on the wrong side of the law, your experience may differ.

Mine was with FBI took a few mins longer. Pistol was used in a Bank Robbery. I had to find name of GI in my company that had bought it. Other wise would have been like the Deputy.

My divorce paper work show who got what by make model and serial number.

 

[giggitygiggity]

A 4473 is not required to transfer between immediate family members in PA. Doing so would run up unnecessary transfer fees. There is no registry in PA, only a record of sale. You could buy a gun and a second later hand it to your wife and it is her's. That said, you run into a straw purchase issue if your wife is prohibited from owning firearms.

 

[HexHead]

The Form 4473 is a background check, not a registration of the gun. The form stays with the dealer for 20 years, at which point it can be destroyed, or turned in to the BATFE if he ceases business sooner.

The form itself says that it's only purpose it to determine if you are a "prohibited person".

The information you provide will be used to determine whether you are prohibited under law from receiving a firearm.

 

[Sam1911]

That said, you run into a straw purchase issue if your wife is prohibited from owning firearms.

No, actually straw purchase has nothing to do with whether the receiver of the firearm is prohibited from possessing a firearm.

You can give someone a firearm as a gift. That's lawful. You commit a "straw purchase" if someone else is purchasing that firearm THROUGH you. I.e., you are not the real purchaser, you're just putting your name on the paperwork in lieu of that other person. Even if that person would be completely legal in purchasing that firearm for themselves, if they're having you purchase it in their stead, that's a straw purchase.

 

[dogtown tom]

The Form 4473 is a background check, not a registration of the gun.

No, it's not. It's called a "Firearm Transaction Record"......it is a record of a sale/transfer between a licensed dealer and buyer/transferee.
While an FBI NICS check may be conducted (and the result recorded on the 4473)....it is not required if the buyer/transferee holds a valid state firearm permit that serves as an exemption to the NICS check. At least 60% of my transfers are NICS exempt.

The form itself says that it's only purpose it to determine if you are a "prohibited person".

Horsehockey. It says nothing of the sort. While the form does aid the licensee in determining whether he may lawfully transfer the firearm, that is not the sole purpose. It is a HUGE part of the requirement for the licensee to "maintain proper records" of the transaction.

 

[Steve in PA]

And exactly what makes you think that the guns belong to both his wife and him?

Pennsylvania is a common law marital property State not a community property State. Under common law marital property principles, property acquired by one spouse belongs solely and exclusively to that spouse absent clear evidence that the parties intend title to be held jointly.

So you're wrong.

.

If the gun was acquired during the marriage, then the husband and wife can come to an agreement as to who gets what, but if there is an issue, like the gun, then the husband may have to pay the wife a fair amount of money in order to keep the gun.

Pennsylvania is an equitable distribution state. Equitable distribution means a "fair". not equal division of marital property. Marital property includes all property that was acquired during the marriage, regardless of how it is titled (in whose name it is). Gifts from one spouse to another are marital property if they were purchased with marital funds. Generally gifts and inheritances that a spouse receives during the marriage belong to that spouse. Pensions and business interests that were developed by one spouse are considered marital property if they were acquired during the marriage. Marital property in Pennsylvania is defined by � 3501of the PA Statutes as:

(a) General rule.-As used in this chapter, "marital property" means all property acquired by either party during the marriage, including the increase in value, prior to the date of final separation, of any nonmarital property acquired pursuant to paragraphs (1) and (3), except:

• 
  (1) Property acquired prior to marriage or property acquired in exchange for property acquired prior to the marriage.
  
  (3) Property acquired by gift, except between spouses, bequest, devise or descent.
  

 

[Frank Ettin]

If the gun was acquired during the marriage, then the husband and wife can come to an agreement as to who gets what, but if there is an issue, like the gun, then the husband may have to pay the wife a fair amount of money in order to keep the gun.

Pennsylvania is an equitable distribution state. Equitable distribution means a "fair". not equal division of marital property. Marital property includes all property that was acquired during the marriage, regardless of how it is titled (in whose name it is). Gifts from one spouse to another are marital property if they were purchased with marital funds. Generally gifts and inheritances that a spouse receives during the marriage belong to that spouse. Pensions and business interests that were developed by one spouse are considered marital property if they were acquired during the marriage. Marital property in Pennsylvania is defined by � 3501of the PA Statutes as:

(a) General rule.-As used in this chapter, "marital property" means all property acquired by either party during the marriage, including the increase in value, prior to the date of final separation, of any nonmarital property acquired pursuant to paragraphs (1) and (3), except:

• 
  (1) Property acquired prior to marriage or property acquired in exchange for property acquired prior to the marriage.
  
  (3) Property acquired by gift, except between spouses, bequest, devise or descent.

Thank you -- both for authoritative, Pennsylvania specific information and citing proper, legal authority.

 

[Black Knight]

I can see 2 advantages in his idea. 1. By doing a transfer at an FFL it would indicate that she gave them to him. She could not claim in court that he stole them. 2. It would also show that he is not a prohibited person and can legally have them. I know it sounds nit-picky but having been a PI I can tell you lawyers can screw up the most simple divorce. This way most if not all bases are covered.

 

[Frank Ettin]

This should probably be done with by now.