I own a Springfield GI, and like so many of us, I had problems with the extractor. Those Para Ordnace power extractors seem like a great idea, but I haven't heard of anybody else planning to use them. So again, does even one other company plan to use the PE system? It would save us 1911 shooters an aweful lot of hassle.
Do any 1911 makers besides Para Ordnance plan to start using Power Extractors?
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lyricsdad
Member
What kind of problems have you had with your extractor? I have not had any with mine, so I an curious...
BTW couldnt you just buy one of them extractors from Para and install it??
BTW couldnt you just buy one of them extractors from Para and install it??
IZinterrogator
Member
Are the Para power extractors internal or external? I haven't seen a Para around here in about four years, and that one was used.
What would save us a lot of hassle is if 1911 manufacturers would actually make extractors out of HARDENED SPRING STEEL again like they used to back before the 1980's. Sheesh, all these newfangled ways to make the extractor work, when all they need to do is go back to making them the way they used to. :banghead:
Aguila Blanca
Member
The power extractor may be proprietary to Para-Ordnance. I know they have trademarked the name "Power Extractor," and they may have a patent on the mechanism as well.
It is internal, requiring a larger than standard extractor bore. Basically, you can sort of think of it as being an external extractor that's not external. It uses a coil spring to maintain constant pressure on the extractor, and the claw is larger than a standard 1911 extractor claw. I believe Para's shop will retrofit their older pistols that don't have it, for a charge. I don't know if they will install it in pistols from other manufacturers.
It is internal, requiring a larger than standard extractor bore. Basically, you can sort of think of it as being an external extractor that's not external. It uses a coil spring to maintain constant pressure on the extractor, and the claw is larger than a standard 1911 extractor claw. I believe Para's shop will retrofit their older pistols that don't have it, for a charge. I don't know if they will install it in pistols from other manufacturers.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Springy Steel
dsk sez:
>What would save us a lot of hassle is if 1911 manufacturers would actually make extractors out of HARDENED SPRING STEEL again like they used to back before the 1980's. Sheesh, all these newfangled ways to make the extractor work, when all they need to do is go back to making them the way they used to.<
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Oh! Yessssss...If only!
Just FWIW...The "Great New" Power extractor is another ingenious (and expensive) solution to a problem that was solved about 95 years ago.
I might add that a proper magazine that keeps the last round from jumping the follower would also go a long way toward maintaining extractor tension.
When the hook is forced to climb the rim...it tends to go away pretty fast.
JMB...Could ya stand 50,000+ rounds without havin' to retune your extractor?
dsk sez:
>What would save us a lot of hassle is if 1911 manufacturers would actually make extractors out of HARDENED SPRING STEEL again like they used to back before the 1980's. Sheesh, all these newfangled ways to make the extractor work, when all they need to do is go back to making them the way they used to.<
*************
Oh! Yessssss...If only!
Just FWIW...The "Great New" Power extractor is another ingenious (and expensive) solution to a problem that was solved about 95 years ago.
I might add that a proper magazine that keeps the last round from jumping the follower would also go a long way toward maintaining extractor tension.
When the hook is forced to climb the rim...it tends to go away pretty fast.
JMB...Could ya stand 50,000+ rounds without havin' to retune your extractor?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Springy
dsk sayeth:
>New Colt extractors (such as on the WW1 Replica) are hardened barstock, but not spring steel.<
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Correct-a-mundo. Same goes for the Hardcore and the Bulletproof...
but there IS a way to make'em springy...or at least springier.(Is that a word?)
dsk sayeth:
>New Colt extractors (such as on the WW1 Replica) are hardened barstock, but not spring steel.<
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Correct-a-mundo. Same goes for the Hardcore and the Bulletproof...
but there IS a way to make'em springy...or at least springier.(Is that a word?)
I am truly amazed that these companies will go to the time, trouble and expense of machining an extractor out of bar stock, and then not use the right steel alloy and hear treating process. All they have to do is read the fine print on the blueprint.
Of course maybe they can’t read….??
Of course maybe they can’t read….??
Kruzr
Member
I've never seen a MIM extractor on any gun except a Colt.
FWIW, Kimber never used MIM extractors except on the now deceased external extractors.
I'm not aware that SA uses MIM extractors either, they use pot metal I think.
If you still have that Kimber you had (Gold Match?), pull the extractor. You'll clearly see the machine marks.
mrmeval
Member
Heat treatable steel is expensive and the heat treatment can be depending on what steel it is and how crappy it is. Without them disclosing what the steel is you can't get a perfect heat treatment though you could do a heat treat and temper at home and see if it worked. It's not very hard and it's only a simple part.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Steel
mrmeval said:
>Heat treatable steel is expensive and the heat treatment can be depending on what steel it is and how crappy it is. Without them disclosing what the steel is you can't get a perfect heat treatment though you could do a heat treat and temper at home and see if it worked. It's not very hard and it's only a simple part.<
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It's not that the steel is crappy so much as it is the type of steel that they use can't be hardened and drawn to a correct spring temper. Specs call for
1075 or 1090 with austenitic grain size 7 or smaller, and most modern extractors are made of 4140 or 4340...at least the good ones are anyway. Good stuff, but it tends to be a little too rigid for a proper extractor.
The other part of the problem is in making sure that the extractor hook isn't forced to climb the rim on chambering...which does the same thing as dropping a round into the chamber and hitting the slide release. The last round is most critical because that's where a push-feed is most likely to occur unless it's adequately controlled. Magazine design and function is the key. I have a suspicion that these new whizbang extractors that are intended to "address the weak point" or to "correct the design flaw" have come about because the shooting public insists on using magazines that don't insure total control of all rounds...and they've attempted to design an extractor that'll better tolerate push-feeding in order to acommodate the magazine's malfunction.
The 1911 operates on the "Controlled Feed" principle, and it's supposed to do that on all rounds...not 6 out of 7, or 7 out of 8. Push-feeding/single-loading is allowable on a limited basis in case of emergency...not as a way of life.
mrmeval said:
>Heat treatable steel is expensive and the heat treatment can be depending on what steel it is and how crappy it is. Without them disclosing what the steel is you can't get a perfect heat treatment though you could do a heat treat and temper at home and see if it worked. It's not very hard and it's only a simple part.<
*****************
It's not that the steel is crappy so much as it is the type of steel that they use can't be hardened and drawn to a correct spring temper. Specs call for
1075 or 1090 with austenitic grain size 7 or smaller, and most modern extractors are made of 4140 or 4340...at least the good ones are anyway. Good stuff, but it tends to be a little too rigid for a proper extractor.
The other part of the problem is in making sure that the extractor hook isn't forced to climb the rim on chambering...which does the same thing as dropping a round into the chamber and hitting the slide release. The last round is most critical because that's where a push-feed is most likely to occur unless it's adequately controlled. Magazine design and function is the key. I have a suspicion that these new whizbang extractors that are intended to "address the weak point" or to "correct the design flaw" have come about because the shooting public insists on using magazines that don't insure total control of all rounds...and they've attempted to design an extractor that'll better tolerate push-feeding in order to acommodate the magazine's malfunction.
The 1911 operates on the "Controlled Feed" principle, and it's supposed to do that on all rounds...not 6 out of 7, or 7 out of 8. Push-feeding/single-loading is allowable on a limited basis in case of emergency...not as a way of life.
wally
Member
So far I've broken two traditional design 1911 extractors. First on a pre-series 70 Colt Government Model purchased circa 1984 after 7-8000 rounds. Second on a "MIM" (I've no idea of what or how it was really made) Charles Daly EMS after about 6500 rounds. I use mostly the "shooting star" type 8-round magazines since they became available.
The Colt extractor hook flew off to never-never land, but I recovered the Daly extractor hook and inspected it carefully. I could see no evidence of wear or polish on the front face where I'd expect if it were push feeding. I could see polish on the inside surface and bottom where its got a slight bevel. When I clean my 1911 (probably not often enough by most of y'alls standards, I inspect the front of the hook for brass marks or wear/polish. Not seeing any.
Replacement is fast and easy to restore function. Usually takes a bit more work to match the contour at the rear of the side, but this is stricly cosmetic. I now keep a spare extractor in my range bag.
Check oth the Para Ordnance forum at www.1911Forum.com. You'll find no shortage of reports of PxT extractors breaking, so it ain't the answer. If you want to try a PxT-like extractor in a standard 1911, try the aftec: http://www3.mailordercentral.com/shootingstore/searchprods.asp
I've an Armscor 1911-A2 widebody .45 (Para P14 clone) that has an external extractor. Zero extraction/ejection issues so far in about 2000 rounds of Wolf ball and my reloads. They didn't re-invent the wheel, they seemed to have used the Tanfoglio "Witness" extractor. S&W also seems to have got the external extractor right on their 1911s. Kimber certainly seems to have screwed the pooch with theirs. I prefer the traditional internal extractor simply because its easy to replace and very easy to find a spare. The others can only come from the maker.
If you've never broken a gun you just ain't shooting enough
--wally.
The Colt extractor hook flew off to never-never land, but I recovered the Daly extractor hook and inspected it carefully. I could see no evidence of wear or polish on the front face where I'd expect if it were push feeding. I could see polish on the inside surface and bottom where its got a slight bevel. When I clean my 1911 (probably not often enough by most of y'alls standards, I inspect the front of the hook for brass marks or wear/polish. Not seeing any.
Replacement is fast and easy to restore function. Usually takes a bit more work to match the contour at the rear of the side, but this is stricly cosmetic. I now keep a spare extractor in my range bag.
Check oth the Para Ordnance forum at www.1911Forum.com. You'll find no shortage of reports of PxT extractors breaking, so it ain't the answer. If you want to try a PxT-like extractor in a standard 1911, try the aftec: http://www3.mailordercentral.com/shootingstore/searchprods.asp
I've an Armscor 1911-A2 widebody .45 (Para P14 clone) that has an external extractor. Zero extraction/ejection issues so far in about 2000 rounds of Wolf ball and my reloads. They didn't re-invent the wheel, they seemed to have used the Tanfoglio "Witness" extractor. S&W also seems to have got the external extractor right on their 1911s. Kimber certainly seems to have screwed the pooch with theirs. I prefer the traditional internal extractor simply because its easy to replace and very easy to find a spare. The others can only come from the maker.
If you've never broken a gun you just ain't shooting enough
--wally.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Extractors
wallywallywallywally...
A couple of minor points:
1. Just because you don't see brass tracks on the nose of your extractor is no sure sign that it's not effecting a push-feed. That you broke two barstock extractors with that low round count is what them folks in law enforcement calls a "Clew."
2. Neither Colt...nor anyone else... has used real spring steel extractors since the ones left over from the post-war contract-that-never-came ran out...sometime in the late 60s. They either continued to make...or outsourced...barstock extractors, but they weren't made of 1090 steel/grain size 7 or smaller/hardened and drawn to spring temper. Why? No need to go to such expensive lengths. The manfacturers know that only a handful of the buyers will fire their guns more than a boxful or two a year...and the hard-use shooters will either have their extractors set up for durability and/or just accept having to retension and/or replace the parts periodically. In short...
They know that they're building toys/conversation pieces/status symbols.
The 1911 isn't being issued for serious purposes in large numbers any more...and hasn't been for some time.
The good news is that extractors made of "other materials" can be made to perform very much like the originals...and only give up a little in long-term durability to the spring-tempered 1090 extractors...and it's pretty simple.
I've just replaced two of mine with fresh Brown Hardcore units...after close to 75k...not because they've failed...but mainly for preventive measures. I've gotten my money's worth, and they'll go into the range box for spares
that will likely wind up in somebody else's guns. For the record...I won't even
test an 8-round magazine w/slick-topped follower in one of my guns...not even once.
wallywallywallywally...
A couple of minor points:
1. Just because you don't see brass tracks on the nose of your extractor is no sure sign that it's not effecting a push-feed. That you broke two barstock extractors with that low round count is what them folks in law enforcement calls a "Clew."
2. Neither Colt...nor anyone else... has used real spring steel extractors since the ones left over from the post-war contract-that-never-came ran out...sometime in the late 60s. They either continued to make...or outsourced...barstock extractors, but they weren't made of 1090 steel/grain size 7 or smaller/hardened and drawn to spring temper. Why? No need to go to such expensive lengths. The manfacturers know that only a handful of the buyers will fire their guns more than a boxful or two a year...and the hard-use shooters will either have their extractors set up for durability and/or just accept having to retension and/or replace the parts periodically. In short...
They know that they're building toys/conversation pieces/status symbols.
The 1911 isn't being issued for serious purposes in large numbers any more...and hasn't been for some time.
The good news is that extractors made of "other materials" can be made to perform very much like the originals...and only give up a little in long-term durability to the spring-tempered 1090 extractors...and it's pretty simple.
I've just replaced two of mine with fresh Brown Hardcore units...after close to 75k...not because they've failed...but mainly for preventive measures. I've gotten my money's worth, and they'll go into the range box for spares
that will likely wind up in somebody else's guns. For the record...I won't even
test an 8-round magazine w/slick-topped follower in one of my guns...not even once.
wally
Member
Rubbing material on material leaves marks. You can believe what you want, but I need evidence before I believe something is occuring. If I can see the wear/polish on the normal extractor contact surfaces that are designed for it you'll have a hard time convinceing me I shouldn't see it from things contacting that shouldn't be contacting. There has to be a high normal force on the front of the hook when it is forced to snap over the rim. If this won't leave a mark, why do guns show holster wear?
The serious purposes arguement is a bit of a straw-man. In the field you are far more likely to have a failure because of poor maintainence or accumulated crud from slogging thru the mud than from parts breakage. I'd bet a large sum of money that any gun in my safe could be pulled at random and empty a mag into a bad guy without failure. If it ever gets more serious than this I won't be worrying about handguns. For serious purposes a handgun is for you to always have handy so you can fight your way back to your rifle. All its really got to do is realiably shoot all the ammo I'm carrying for it. If I could be resupplied, I'd much rather they bring me a rifle instead of more handgun ammo! Going up against rifles and shotguns with handguns is the express lane to boot hill.
--wally.
The serious purposes arguement is a bit of a straw-man. In the field you are far more likely to have a failure because of poor maintainence or accumulated crud from slogging thru the mud than from parts breakage. I'd bet a large sum of money that any gun in my safe could be pulled at random and empty a mag into a bad guy without failure. If it ever gets more serious than this I won't be worrying about handguns. For serious purposes a handgun is for you to always have handy so you can fight your way back to your rifle. All its really got to do is realiably shoot all the ammo I'm carrying for it. If I could be resupplied, I'd much rather they bring me a rifle instead of more handgun ammo! Going up against rifles and shotguns with handguns is the express lane to boot hill.
--wally.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
*sigh*
On June 24th, 1876...Lt. Colonel George Armstrong Custer looked through a field glass down a draw toward the Little Bighorn River...turned to his first Sergeant and said: "Hell, Sarge...I just don't think there are THAT many Sioux down there. Let's go!"
*sigh*
On June 24th, 1876...Lt. Colonel George Armstrong Custer looked through a field glass down a draw toward the Little Bighorn River...turned to his first Sergeant and said: "Hell, Sarge...I just don't think there are THAT many Sioux down there. Let's go!"
The local law, not to mention our winter snowbirds, might get a bit upset if they saw this Old Fuff always going around with a rifle or shotgun... 
Don't really plan to "fight my way to my rifle" anywhy, By the time I arrived any fight would likely be over...
Don't really plan to "fight my way to my rifle" anywhy, By the time I arrived any fight would likely be over...
wally
Member
Oh well, I figure if I had to worry that my extractor might break after "only" 5000 rounds I'd think having any handgun would be a disadvantage over a rifle or shotgun when things got "serious".
Personally, as long as a handgun shoots all the ammo I'm carrying without problems its reliable enough, beyond this is moot.
At the range I shoot 'em, enjoy 'em, fix anything that breaks and repeat. As long as I'm spending more time shooting than cleaning and fixing I think its a good gun.
--wally.
Personally, as long as a handgun shoots all the ammo I'm carrying without problems its reliable enough, beyond this is moot.
At the range I shoot 'em, enjoy 'em, fix anything that breaks and repeat. As long as I'm spending more time shooting than cleaning and fixing I think its a good gun.
--wally.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Ah well...
Anyway...back to the topic!
Nobody that I know of means to use the PXT. Rumor has it that Para Ord will
modify/retrofit your slide to acommodate it...I suppose if it's one of theirs. not sure if they'll do it for other makes. Seems like the cost is a hundred bucks plus the cost of the part.
Cheers!
Anyway...back to the topic!
Nobody that I know of means to use the PXT. Rumor has it that Para Ord will
modify/retrofit your slide to acommodate it...I suppose if it's one of theirs. not sure if they'll do it for other makes. Seems like the cost is a hundred bucks plus the cost of the part.
Cheers!
mrmeval
Member
Science?
Damn has anyone ever done a full metalurgical analysis of both types of extractors after say 10,000 rounds?
Has anyone worked up what stresses an extractor goes through and what would be the ideal material, hardness, elasticity etc for it?
Damn has anyone ever done a full metalurgical analysis of both types of extractors after say 10,000 rounds?
Has anyone worked up what stresses an extractor goes through and what would be the ideal material, hardness, elasticity etc for it?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Stress
mrmeval asked:
>Damn has anyone ever done a full metalurgical analysis of both types of extractors after say 10,000 rounds?<
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I doubt it...not since the 19-teens anyway. If the gun is operating correctly, there shouldn't be a lot of stress on the extractor anyway...not even during extraction. If the unlock/linkdown timing is right, a 1911 pistol will run pretty well without an extractor even being there...and usually only hang up on the last round. I've gone through as many as 5 full magazines in a couple of mine without a bobble...with the extractor removed. Won a double sawbuck off a non-believer in the process...
mrmeval asked:
>Damn has anyone ever done a full metalurgical analysis of both types of extractors after say 10,000 rounds?<
****************************
I doubt it...not since the 19-teens anyway. If the gun is operating correctly, there shouldn't be a lot of stress on the extractor anyway...not even during extraction. If the unlock/linkdown timing is right, a 1911 pistol will run pretty well without an extractor even being there...and usually only hang up on the last round. I've gone through as many as 5 full magazines in a couple of mine without a bobble...with the extractor removed. Won a double sawbuck off a non-believer in the process...
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